Talk:WikiJournal User Group

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WikiJournal User Group discussion boards

WikiJournal User Group

Discussions may also take place at the public mailing list at https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikijournal-en

Developing WikiJournal project at wikijournal.org[edit]

Integration of content from wikijournal.org[edit]

I agree with the points made by Diptanshu.D and Doc James above. Philip, after discussing this with other WikiJournal User Group, we are not prepared to make an outright merge, since there are obvious differences with the aims of these projects. We are not prepared to make any exception for the aim of having peer review for journals in the group. With merely editorial review, the project would essentially add almost nothing to the world, since there are already Wikipedia articles with protection, with the "editors" practically being those who discuss the content of such protected pages at each WikiProject, such as WikiProject Medicine. I'd rather see users contributing to Wikipedia articles than putting effort on non-peer reviewed journals. Also, as mentioned we have several options for domain name and technical hosting when we feel we are ready to push for a Future as separate Wikimedia project. Still, Philip, you are very welcome to join the project and help build for example the WikiJournal of Science or a new title of your liking. It is possible to integrate articles of yours from your project, but it's important that they have a clear statement for each article without independent peer review that these are drafts yet to be peer reviewed. Mikael Häggström (discusscontribs) 14:56, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Philip: After an internal discussion Mikael has already informed you of our decision. If you want to transfer your contents to ours, you would need to meet the quality standards, be it now or in the future. There can be no deviation from this. I do not suppose that you should be concerned about when our project becomes a Wikimedia sister project. Please note that Wikimedia is the Foundation that runs projects like Wikipedia whereas Mediawiki is the software it uses. These two are entirely different entities and please do not confuse between those two.
As Mikael has pointed out, you are still welcome to put your inputs into our projects. But quality standards would remain a pre-requisite. Diptanshu.D (discusscontribs) 15:26, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi, Mikael, Diptanshu.D! I don't see "obvious differences with the aims of these projects" ... There are only few articles in English WikiJournal (that can be easily archived and marked as non-reviewed articles ... or even deleted until it meets requirements) ... and that't it. At least English WikiJournal is completely ready to realize idea of the journal according to Wikimedia principles and mission. As for Russian edition (because it has the most number of articles) I can just do the same with articles. So I don't see any obstacles the join Wikijournal.org and use it as peer-reviewed journal. I can't understand what can be done else from my side!!! If you decided to develop WikiJournal under another name or whatever. Well, it is just your decision. Just let me know if we work together on the project and its idea or not. If you still insist all published articles at wikijournal.org to fulfill the requirements on its quality and be peer-reviewed. Well, i don't mind ... but it will take time, may be 1-2 years ... I don't know. --Fokebox (discusscontribs) 16:08, 19 March 2017‎ (UTC)
Dear Philip: differences, if any, can be settled if we are willing. I assume that we are. But commitment to quality remains an issue. I would hope that you would think alike. We were skeptical particularly due to three reasons. Firstly, the humongous grant amount made it sound fishy, especially because it was done prior to community involvement. Secondly, your reservation about the peer-review system acted as a barrier. Thirdly, we cannot set up two parallel systems. If we are to merge, wikijournal.org has to be integrated into the same system on which rest of the Wikimedia projects reside. Your reservation about this was another major factor. If you are willing to resolve these I do not see any major problems. You have already shown solidarity by making the licenses compatible. Your tone sounds friendly and we would like to be friendly as well. If you are ready to donate your domain to WMF and if you are ready to embrace the peer-review culture, I do not think that there is any major issue.
I respect all the efforts you have put in so far. But your efforts have been more in the lines of a magazine. I am certain that you would like to improve upon it if there is a chance. All over the world journals are known to be more reliable and authentic than magazines since they adhere to quality control and peer review. If are willing to adopt this culture, we can happily get going. The time delay for peer-reviewing the existing contents on English and Russian version should not be an issue. Diptanshu.D (discusscontribs) 01:55, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Dear Diptanshu.D, please be kindly informed on following:
  • Pardon me for including the group to the grant, now I have excluded it as an interested group. And I apply for me personally for further developing the project.
  • I cannot donate the domain and cannot be a volunteer at this point, 'cause there is a personal interest, while creating developing the website.
  • I don't mind the project to be reviewed. As Wikijournal multi-thematic journal some categories are not necessary should be peer-reviewed. The journal is not strictly scientific, academic, but is open for all users who would like to publish an article as a journalist. But at any case all articles should be reviewed and authors can be informed to improve articles on some points. Please also be informed that It is quite difficult procedure to become peer-reviewed journal in Russia (Russian edition of WikiJournal). There are several steps to obtain such status that includes registration of the company, obtaining the status of Mass-media, obtaining the license, obtaining the special status at State authority as a source of peer-reviewed articles. Only after such procedure universities, academics, scientists will be interested in publishing of their peer-reviewed articles, in other case there won't be any interest in publications. (I don't know the same procedure in Europe, the US and other countries.)
  • Wikijournal status remains free, independent, international, multi-thematic and multi-lingual, open access peer reviewed online journal for scholars, journalists and all registered users.
--Fokebox (discusscontribs) 08:41, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Dear Philip: Your idea of journal is different from ours and Mikael has already pointed that the scope and objectives are different. Your idea is actually about a blog or magazine. People can get to form free blogs at a number of locations like blogspot or wordpress. We are not trying to develop a blog or magazine and would not like our contributors to the same. We feel that contributing to Wikipedia is a better idea. We would not accept anything that does not meet the criteria of an academic or scholarly journal. Your idea does not fulfill that criteria. In such a case I wonder what you really have worth offering. Had you offered to donate or sell your domain to Wikimedia that could have opened the scope of a merger. But since you are not open to that option we find no value in your project and therefore are not interested in a merger. After an internal discussion we had anticipated this possibility and hence Mikael had communicated to you. Please note that we can easily do without your domain but are apprehensive that you would be abusing the name WikiJournal. Diptanshu.D (discusscontribs) 09:17, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Diptanshu.D, In this case I can just offer to create subdomain science.wikijournal.org where you can completely publish peer-review articles. And there is significant difference between blogs and journals/magazines--Fokebox (discusscontribs) 10:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Dear Philip: I find your proposal unsuitable. If you mean to hand over a subdomain, that seems rather stupid. If you mean to keep the subdomain on your server it remains even more unacceptable. In any case we cannot allow anything devoid of peer-review if we are to be involved. Finally, the purview of our involvement in peer-reviewed journal activity is not limited to science alone. Even history, commerce or journalism related journals would all need to be peer reviewed. There can be no deviation from this. Diptanshu.D (discusscontribs) 17:27, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Dear Diptanshu please note, I don't mind that articles should be peer-reviewed at Wikijournal. But I think it creates barrier for authors to publish some materials. Let's imagine if I publish information on Lens review and how and is it neccessary that such article should be peer-reviewed? --Fokebox (discusscontribs) 18:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Dear Philip: Even in case of a lens review, peer review is essential. After the author makes a submission it is the responsibility of the editorial board or peer review coordinators to find subject matter experts in the field. In this case it could be other lens reviewers or photographers or alike (ones who are experienced with lenses). These people need to be invited to read and evaluate the article and to make sure that the facts and presentation are proper. We have a criteria of at least two independent peer reviewers reviewing each article. They may evaluate the article anonymously or under their own name. After going through the article they provide their inputs about how the article could be improved further. These suggestions could be factual or in terms of style of writing. The suggestions could be essential or optional. The author has to act upon the inputs and unless there are any further inputs the article is now considered by the editorial board whether it is fit to be published. So, irrespective of the field or topic, peer review is considered essential in maintaining quality of a journal article as well as the integrity of the journal. Diptanshu.D (discusscontribs) 10:59, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Dear Diptanshu, well I don't mind to have this procedure and to have completely reviewed wikijournal even all my own publshed articles. I confirmed this several times before and still don't understand why you don't want to join/merge articles and what should be done else from my side.--Fokebox (discusscontribs) 13:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Diptanshu. Philip, you mention several steps to have official status as a peer review journal. Being registered and indexed among scholarly journals does indeed give the journal additional recognition and credibility, but is it not a pre-requisite to run it. Rather, it can be done gradually as the journal grows.
You do indeed deserve recognition for the personal investment, so if you donate the wikijournal.org domain to Wikimedia, you deserve a mention in its history as the registrant of the domain.
I'm glad that you are willing to have a completely reviewed wikijournal! This is what makes wikijournal unique. Taking an article about the lens for example, there is already a Wikipedia article on that topic which everyone can help writing, and where WikiProject Physics can be regarded as an editorial team that discusses what to include.
I'm now checking with others in the board what would be the next step if we are to merge. Mikael Häggström (discusscontribs) 21:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Mikael I think that there isn't need to donate the domain. I can only give technical access to the server to set up or install extension, updates etc. The domain remains under my personal control, but from my side I garantee access to website for all.--Fokebox (discusscontribs) 22:11, 21 March 2017‎ (UTC)

What a merger would look like[edit]

There are a few key requirements for the WikiJournal User Group (and consequently wikijournal.org if a merger occurs) in order to be successful:

  1. Become a sister project within the Wikimedia Foundation - This is is a major task and involves satisfying the Sister Projects Committee that the project meets a number of requirements (similar to requirements for thematic organisations). Otherwise it is better to remain a user group / thematic org within the umbrella of the WMF.
    • Wikimedia supportive mission & Thematic mission - Must offer something unique (not covered by other projects). The peer reviewed academic content does this via external expert review. The danger for opinion pieces such as product reports, location reports or how-to guides is that without some form of review they might be more suited for Wikipedia, Wikivoyage, or Wikihow (non WMF).
    • Legal structure - Bylaws need to be developed to ensure clear scope and operations of the project.
    • CC BY-SA (or compatible) licensing - Done for both WikiJournal User Group and wikijournal.org
    • No advertising - Done for both WikiJournal User Group and wikijournal.org
  2. Each journal becomes indexed in appropriate academic locations (e.g. pubmed, PMC, google scholar, medline etc) - This will have to be achieved by each journal separately, whether they are medicine, humanities, science or otherwise. It relies on output of quality-assured contents and adherence to strict standards.

Possible bylaws solution

  1. Draft official bylaws for how the journal publishing group would operate (WikiJournal_User_Group/Draft bylaws). I would recommend using the WikiJournal of Medicine/Bylaws as a starting point as currently our most advanced attempt at such a system. This has the add benefit of us laying out in a single document the mission, vision and organisation of the project.

Possible non-peer reviewed content solutions

  1. 'Clean slate' (Like WikiJournal of Science). When the second journal of science was slowly converted into the WikiJournal of Science, previous articles that had not been reviewed were archived (the 'zeroth' issue) and added to the list of articles to be peer reviewed. If they pass peer review, then they would be added to one of the subsequent issues of the WikiJournal of Science.
  2. 'Preprint server' (Like arxiv.org). A specific section of the site where articles that are not yet peer reviewed are kept. This section would make no assertion of accuracy for contents. This would be the same as Category:Pre-prints_not_yet_included_in_WikiJournal_of_Medicine.

Possible identity solutions

  1. We need to draft an example 'landing page' so that we have a clear idea of what it may look like. I will put together a draft main page based (somewhat) on www.plos.org.

The above represent only my own thoughts on possible solutions, but others are free to suggest alternatives that I've not thought of! All of these things need to be addressed regardless of what specific domain ends up being used or whether a merger goes ahead. Having these draft documents will help us to all be clearer about what we intend (to fully avoid any possible misunderstandings) and if any clashes remain. T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 07:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Centralisation for WikiJournal User Group discussion[edit]

We currently have discussions about the WikiJournal project across three locations:

Since the 'formal' WikiJournal User Group page is at Meta:Talk:WikiJournal User Group, I think that we should move centralised discussion from here to there to be in line with other user groups. If people agree I'll merge the current talk page contents and archives into Meta:Talk:WikiJournal User Group, redirected from the other pages.
T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 04:45, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

I think it is important to centralize the discussion, but I prefer this to be the location. I don't visit my watchlist at the Meta wiki very often, so it might take a week before I notice there's any new talk page entry there. Mikael Häggström (discusscontribs) 07:57, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
agree w/ Mikael Häggström --Ozzie10aaaa (discusscontribs) 13:26, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
I think that discussion about the general WikiJournal project should take place at Meta, and discussion about the English WikiJournals should remain here (until we migrate to wikijournal.org). --Felipe (discusscontribs) 16:03, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I think that Meta is the right place. However, as of now (till the migration to wikijournal.org is complete) the ongoing discussions can remain here. Diptanshu.D (discusscontribs) 18:58, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

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That's fine by me. A proper cross-wiki watchlist can't come soon enough! I'll redirect everything here for now. We can revisit the issue later in the year. T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 10:50, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I've replaced the other talk pages with redirects here. I've also moved the old Wikiversity:Talk:WikiJournal/Future as separate Wikimedia project to an archive of this page, since it's a more sensible location. T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 11:14, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
I've done a few renames (basically renamed WikiJournal/WikiJournal User Group to WikiJournal User Group). The redundancy seemed useless, ugly and confusing. I hope you'll all agree it's better now. In any case, we're on the path to migration so it'd be temporary, but it's nice to know that we only have three main pages now, and they are named more or less consistently: WikiJournal User Group, meta:WikiJournal User Group and meta:WikiJournal. Also, the WikiJournal page can now be devoted to the generalist journal proposed here (when and if consensus is achieved). --Felipe (discusscontribs) 20:05, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Good work. I've also added a top banner so that new readers can more easily find the main discussion pages of relevance. It's a bit of a visual clash with the Wiki.J.Med discussion page but will do for now. T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 11:49, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikiversity Main Page Section[edit]

It seems to me that while WikiJournal is at Wikiversity, it should be highlighted with a Wikiversity:Main Page entry or block. Any thoughts from the user group? -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 17:39, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I would support this. I think it would be ideal to highlight both the WikiJournal User Group page, and WikiJournal of Medicine. One of the main challenges for the expansion to additional topics (e.g. making an issue 1 of WikiJournal of Science will be promoting the existence of the journals to attract submissions. Where in the main page do you thin would be appropriate? T.Shafee(Evo﹠Evo)talk 23:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
There are several options. We could add Journals in the upper right topics box. We could shorten news. We could shrink the heading and daily quote. For me, the current Community box is wasted space and could be replaced, or combined with Development. I'd say be bold. We should also redesign with mobile in mind. The current Main Page mobile view is extremely disappointing. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 01:46, 23 March 2017 (UTC)