# Wikiversity:Colloquium

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## About opening visual editor for IP access

Hello every body,

I'm a Belgian contributor in French Wikiversity and I just come here to ask if this Wikiversity community can agree to the idea of opening the use of the visual editor for IP contributor which is concretely a simple switch on the php code but which need a consensus from the community before leave a request on bugzilla.

Access to the visual editor by IP address is some thing vital for me who a not English native speaker. By the way, I can ask to my English friends who are not registered and who don't wan to be, to go to my research pages for correcting English for of the contain.

Thanks a lot for your attention. I will waiting reaction community to know how to star the consensus process.

A nice day for every one.

--Lionel Scheepmans () , le 04:53, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I would encourage everyone to try the VisualEditor, and also see Wikipedia: Wikipedia:VisualEditor and Wikipedia: Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback regarding issues and concerns. I noticed that Wikipedia tried having this feature available to all users by default last summer, and then turned it off after six weeks. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 14:53, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

## What are we suppose to do with accounts with the name "bot" when they aren't even a bot?

I found one: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=User%3ACsdc-bot&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1 - in the recent changes pretending to be a bot. Aren't we suppose to block accounts that have the name "bot" in it when it isn't even a bot? --Goldenburg111 14:46, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

How do you know it isn't a bot? Or is it just that the edits weren't correctly tagged as bot? But besides that, there was a long debate here several months ago regarding the blocking of bots. It was the community's consensus that we only block bots operating at faster than sixty seconds per edit without prior approval. In other words, we only block bots based on their activity, the same way we only block users based on their activity. So far, Csdc-bot appears to be an opportunity for education rather than a need to block. Would you like to leave this user/bot a message explaining your concerns? -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 14:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Sure. I'll leave one as soon as I can. I also have another one with this problem as well: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Tokrkbot. I've already left a notice. And in response to your "So far, Csdc-bot appears to be an opportunity for education rather than a need to block", I'm assuming we leave bots like this alone? What action should we normally take when this happens? Thanks! --atcovi (talk) 16:13, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
It was the community's consensus that only bots operating faster than one edit per minute would be blocked simply for being a bot. So, other than that, treat bots as you would other users, and focus on the edits rather than the status. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 16:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Alright. --atcovi (talk) 17:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

## TAO

The resource TAO, or Third Age Online, has its own category, Category:TAO, and about a hundred resources at Wikiversity. That's the good news! The not-so-good news is that the project was concluded in December 2013, the website is a deadlink, and its category has no category. I was thinking about putting them all up for deletion as they are abandoned for over a year, with the only recent additions coming from bots. What would the community like to do with these?

The easy solution is to put their category into a higher category associated with the internet and leave them as they are. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 02:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Since there are no other comments, I'd recommend adding a category and preserving the content. I have many pages myself that haven't had updates for more than a year. I keep thinking it's because the quality is already there. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 00:40, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

## Compare law and administration in different jurisdictions?

What tools might exist to facilitate the comparison of law and administration in different jurisdictions?

I'd like to find a home and a structure to facilitate crowdsourcing research to compare current law and practices in issues related to the w:American Anti-Corruption Act (AACA). Wikiversity seemed to me like a reasonable home, because it supports research forbidden on Wikiversity, while sharing the Wikimedia policies of writing from a neutral point of view and citing credible sources.

However, I'd also like the capability to flag material with different subject matter, e.g., the eleven "provisions" of the AACA. I'd like to allow a volunteer to write a summary of the law and administration in a particular jurisdiction (e.g., California or San Jose, CA) with some kind of markup language to identify the which subject, e.g., conflicts of interest, to which a section, sentence or paragraph belongs, and eventually perhaps a score on some scale like the Freedom Scores assigned by Freedom House. This would be combined with some ability for a user to compare the material entered on a given subject for different jurisdictions -- either text or scores.

Suggestions? Thanks, DavidMCEddy (discusscontribs) 11:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest! The School:Law has a series of resources listed under "Law by Jurisdiction" that may be of help. I tried looking up the AACA under both "American Anti-Corruption Act" and AACA on Wikisource and Wikiquote, nada. Wikipedia does have an entry at AACA. The summary you propose is likely to be welcomed by our law department. I hope this helps. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 23:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Depending on the complexity of your structure, you might experiment with categories and subcategories. For example the category Category:Physics_equations has several subcategories, including Category:Physics equations/Quizzes. I am not sure how many categories you need. If the categories are subcategories of a page I don't think there is a problem with polluting category namespace, but that needs to be looked into.
I even have the template category Category:Template:Physeq, which I developed when I discovered myself writing the same equation in various places (and having to make multiple changes when I changed something). But note: I think I violated Wikiversity policy when I put the template Template:Physeq1 into mainspace. Either nobody noticed, or they didn't care, or it's OK to do that. In fact, I need a second edit of all my equation templates, and I will now post an inquiry about that right now. --guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 23:19, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Technically, anything starting with Template: is in Template space rather than main space. The colon designates namespace, which is why colons should be avoided in mainspace titles. We don't have any stated guidelines on template placement, but what I go by when creating or moving content is templates that are only used in a single project are better as subpages of that project, and templates used by multiple projects are best in the Template: namespace. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 00:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you all very much. I've looked some in School:Law including "Law by Jurisdiction", as suggested by User:Marshallsumter. I may also experiment with categories, as suggested by User:Guy vandegrift. First, however, I think I'll study School:Law a bit more. Thanks again. DavidMCEddy (discusscontribs) 07:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't fully understand it, but w:Wikipedia:Categorization#Category_tree_organization looks useful. There seems to be two entirely different meanings of the word "subcategory". Wikipedia defines it as placing a child category into a parent category by inserting [[Category:parentname]], usually at the bottom of the child. But you can also define a subcategory a la Wikiversity's subpage system by creating the page in namespace Category:parent/child. Then when you look at the child category a link to the parent appears at the top in the usual way. --guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 13:24, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

## The process of converting classic talk pages to Flow

(BG: Flow). There are various ways to convert talk pages to Flow. Discussed at this page. I would like to know what we would like to have. Please join the discussion and spread it to other language village pumps. Gryllida 23:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

## A less cluttered way to include multiple sister links.

 Search for Wikipedia on Wikipedia.
 Search for Wikiversity on Wikipedia.
 Search for Wikibooks on Wikipedia.
 Wikibooks has a book on the topic of wikibooks .

I spent the morning knocking myself out trying to create a better template for multiple wikilinks. With more than 4 or 5 links, the boxes on the right look tacky. Finally it dawned on me that using a template to do the job is like cracking a peanut with a sledgehammer. The links to left are just captions to a figure.

If anybody wants to me add another sister, I can easily modify this image on commons.

--guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 20:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• Fwiw, here's an example of our current layout for sister links on categories at en.wn (via our template {{topic cat}}: example. --Pi zero (discusscontribs) 13:58, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• While I realize these have probably been considered, here's my two favorites: --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 18:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Marshallsumpter, I didn't know about them. At the very least, I will switch to the same image used in the templates you showed us. But only after I verify that they do not permit multiple links. --guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 01:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you like w:Template:Sisterlinks? —Justin (koavf)TCM 07:30, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
I may not have learned all the options, but I get the feeling that all the sister link templates are too limited in their options. They allow only one link, and they do not permit flexibility in what is said.--guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 17:05, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
For inspiration on what can be done, another style of sister-linking template is n:Template:Sisters. --Pi zero (discusscontribs) 03:48, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

## VisualEditor News #10—2014

18:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

## Incident-driven policy development

Abd wrote, "What Wikiversity has demonstrated and continues to demonstrate is that it is possible for a wiki to actually study and discuss topics, neutrally. This is largely my design, though following general ideas found in Wikiversity from its foundation. As a result of procedures we have developed, conflict is very low on Wikiversity, for such an active wiki covering a very wide range of topics. Most conflict that remains is personality-based, we had some drama this year from ... Leucosticte and a rogue sysop. We dropped the sysop, and Leucosticte went elsewhere, finding that the community resisted hosting extremely hot topics -- the kind that people go ballistic over, readily, as on RationalWiki, which became seriously emotional over Leucosticte. He could have created educational resources on his favorite topics, but the community, mostly me and the most active sysop -- required ethical guidelines be in place first. . . .

"You were offered an opportunity to work on guidelines, it would have been supported. Nobody else is active trying to create material that is so controversial, AFAIK. Wikiversity is big enough that I certainly don't know everything going on. There are *rough* guidelines in precedents. One of the ways to create guidelines is to explore the controversial area, with caution and consultation. You actually started that. You created a page that was, my opinion, beyond the pale, and you asked about it. I saw it and knew what could happen, I tagged it for speedy deletion and a sysop agreed. But then you were attacked anyway, and the attack continued on Wikiversity after you left to take your suicide method marbles to Wikibooks. By the way, how is the Wikibooks project going? I looked. I didn't notice that you were doing anything lately."

It seems that in politics, a lot of times, policy development is driven by incidents. Hence all the laws on the books that are named after dead children. E.g., Holly's Law. Of course, the problem with such cases is that people tend to make them under the influence of strong emotions and a sense of needing to address an immediate emergency. When flooded in this way, people tend to resort to the most reflexive, least intellectually sophisticated responses. But on the other hand, sometimes when there's calmness and no pressing impetus for a change, nothing gets done, and we're left with the status quo. Fear and anger seem to be some of the main driving forces in politics, leading to the organization of activists for volunteer activities that otherwise would make little sense to devote so much effort to. Unless, of course, they had nothing better to do. The fearmongers can be on either side of the debate, whether fearing free expression or fearing censorship.

If someone else tries to create suicide-related pages here, perhaps he'll be told what I was told, which was that ethical guidelines need to be set forth first. Then he'll probably go away, without any ethical guidelines having been set in place, and no progress will have been made toward fixing the situation. Unless you look at the status quo as already representing perfection, which any change would disturb.

Remember the Paul Romer quote, "A crisis is a terrible thing to waste." I think that crisis was wasted. But, so that this isn't entirely an unproductive rant, might I ask, what are some basic principles that might be the foundation of ethical guidelines for that type of content? The only one that comes to my mind is, "Advocate what you will, but don't incite imminent lawless action." So, for example, it would be okay to say "Killing yourself is a good idea" to the world at large, but if a user says "I'm thinking of jumping off a bridge later today" we shouldn't say "do it". See also Wikiversity:Ethics for pages concerning illegal or physically dangerous activities‎. Leucosticte (discusscontribs) 16:06, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

## Top 100 Learning Projects of 2014

The top 100 learning projects of 2014, as determined by total requests for the page and all subpages, are posted at Wikiversity:Statistics/2014 Projects. I've also added monthly top 1000 requests for the rest of 2014 at Wikiversity:Statistics. Congratulations and thanks to those who have helped create this popular content! -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 05:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

## Porting Wikiversity Quizzes to other wikis?

Does anybody know how they built the Quizzes for Wikipedia, and in particular, how the code could be ported into another wiki? I have been talking to the folks at http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/, and they seem interested in having quizzes. It would be good if both systems had the same syntax for writing quizzes. If Wikipedia is a "sister" to Wikiversity, then ChemWiki is a first cousin with whom we should interact whenever possible. --guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 01:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

This is the extension used for the quiz: I had a quick look at chemwiki but they seem to use another wiki software? Anyway, the extension link above has the code, so someone could convert it to non-MW-software. ----Erkan Yilmaz 13:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. That page doesn't make sense to me, but I have no doubt the people who developed the ChemWiki will understand it. --guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 18:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello. A new policy regarding the removal of "advanced rights" (administrator, bureaucrat, etc) was adopted by global community consensus in 2013. According to this policy, the stewards are reviewing administrators' activity on smaller wikis. To the best of our knowledge, your wiki does not have a formal process for removing "advanced rights" from inactive accounts. This means that the stewards will take care of this according to the admin activity review.

We have determined that the following users meet the inactivity criteria (no edits and no log actions for more than 2 years):

These users will receive a notification soon, asking them to start a community discussion if they want to retain some or all of their rights. If the users do not respond, then their advanced rights will be removed by the stewards.

However, if you as a community would like to create your own activity review process superseding the global one, want to make another decision about these inactive rights holders, or already have a policy that we missed, then please notify the stewards on Meta-Wiki so that we know not to proceed with the rights review on your wiki. Thanks, Rschen7754 06:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

(If anyone's wondering, the notice from a month ago was for 2013, and this is for 2014... yes, we are a bit behind). --Rschen7754 06:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
But, why en.wv is considered to be a smaller wiki?--Juandev (discusscontribs) 04:26, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

## Where to put a Physics or Physics/Astronomy labs page

I wish to start to write labs for physics and/or astronomy courses. The two labs belong under the same namespace because many of the labs could be used for both purposes. I will create a name space called [[Physics labs]], but hold off putting too many labs there until it is decided if this is where it belongs. I will also create a category so that, for example, MATLAB or Python projects could be included (since most physics labs require mathematical processing). Should I call the category Category:Physics labs? --guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 15:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

The school name for this content is School:Physics and Astronomy. Physics and Astronomy Labs (or other capitalization) and a corresponding category seems appropriate to me. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 21:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Done The first resource is Physics and Astronomy Labs/Angular size, which contains a link to this recent edit on an Wikipedia article that contains this image co-authored by myself and a student. In a departure from custom, I decided to capitalize Physics and Astronomy Labs to put "Physics" and "Astronomy" on equal footing. The category will be a subcategory called Category:Physics_and_Astronomy/Labs. When the project is complete, I will attempt to link to it out of the Wikipedia article w:Angular diameter. There are many images on the internet that show how to use your outstretched hand to estimate angular size, but up till now, none of these images are open source. Also, none of the websites that mention this method address the question of the method's accuracy -- Wikiversity will fill both gaps.--guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 01:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

## Wikiversity vision 2015

After the mass deletion of 5000 pages in 2014 I have found the energy to start a new learning project on the Dutch wikiversity. This time I'm going to involve the Dutch community to prevent a deletion. When I posted a request for help in the Wikipedia-pub, I got a lot of reactions. Some of the Wikipedians suggested to start a wikibook to create learning material. Creating a book is not my aim at the moment I now want to facilitate the learning proces of a small community around programming language Scratch. I think what the Dutch community needs is a clear vision. To get inspiration I had a look at the following page: Wikiversity:Vision. What I cannot find in this vision is how wikibooks and the wikiversity differ and what is and is not allowed when creating learning projects? Are there some best practices? Lessons learned, etc.? Thanks for helping! Cheers, Tim, Timboliu (discusscontribs) 19:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I think of textbooks as one-way information sources. Learning projects are more interactive, and should address more learning styles (visual, auditory, kinesthetic), through reading, media, and hands-on activities. What is or isn't allowed depends on the community. It's up to the Dutch Wikiversity community to define what is allowed there.
There are many best practices available. Take a look at Instructional Design for a very in-depth review of best practices. The courses I've designed attempt to follow those best practices by including objectives, reading, multimedia, activities, a lesson summary, key terms, review questions, and assessments to validate that the learning meets the objectives. For an example that addresses a programming topic, take a look at Windows PowerShell. For a less formal approach, see Lua.
Rather than either of these approaches, it sounds like you want to have a small group of learners and create a 'community of inquiry' for a particular topic. That also can work, but you need to have the community of learners to participate. Historically, Wikiversity had that. Currently, a community of learners tends to come from real-world communities already studying a topic, rather than people who meet here to begin their study. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 21:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
>What I cannot find in this vision is how wikibooks and the wikiversity differ and what is and is not allowed when creating learning projects?
Did you start also a thread at Wikibooks to get their opinion?
see also Wikiversity:FAQ (section: What is the difference between Wikiversity, Wikibooks, and even Wikipedia?)
When I was activate as bureaucrat and custodian here my vision of Wikiversity was, in short (1), this:
Wikiversity is a place where anything can happen
So, in terms of "I now want to facilitate the learning proces of a small community around programming language Scratch"
This can happen here at WV, you guys can start a book here (or on Wikibooks)
If here: you can at anytime (let it) import to Wikibooks. ----Erkan Yilmaz 14:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC) (1) no time to gather all links now

## Where are Wikiversity's warning templates and IP Welcome template? (resolved)

Hi. So I'm looking for Wikiversity's warning templates. I can't seem to find any of these templates and would like to warn IP user's edits that are vandalism. As well as the IP Welcome template, can't seem to find them either. Are these templates been created or not yet created? I'll be more than happy to make these templates if they have not been created at this time. Thanks! --atcovi (talk) 16:09, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Atcovi, for the most part, we don't warn IP vandals, not for blatant vandalism. We may or may not block the IP. Warning them just creates a new page that usually does not apply to the next user of that IP. Rather, look at what to do about IP vandalism. First of all, revert it. Look at contributions. Check any older contributions for vandalism, I've found a lot of old undetected vandalism that way. If local vandalism continues, put a note on WV:RCA. Look at global edits. If there is a cross-wiki pattern, report this on meta:Steward requests/global for global blocking.
If it is a registered user, then warn the user. If it is gross vandalism, I suggest not welcoming, otherwise you may welcome for something minor or mysterious. Also look at other edits. Again, if you find a vandalism-only account, report it, here or on meta, as appropriate.
You may certainly make templates. However, do try to respond to the individual. We do want to be open and welcoming here, but IP users have nothing invested, and there is no reliable way to communicate with them. *Usually* they won't even see a talk page notice, unless they are still on-line and active with that IP when you place the notice. --Abd (discusscontribs) 21:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Honestly with a 2nd thought and Abd's comment I don't think Warning template's is a good idea, I mean back in 2010 I was unwelcomed and i couldn't talk to the users since the user's who warned me just put templates on my talk page, I didn't care to read it. I'd rather have, at least, Wikiversity to be welcoming. I'm scratching out the idea of having warning templates. And I think Abd has a very good point on the IP Welcome. Thanks. --atcovi (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

## Should we have our own inactive administrator policy?

User:Rschen7754, a steward, came here on November 2014 to leave notices on inactive administrator's talk pages about their demotion if they do not respond within a month. Most of them are most likely demoted, but shouldn't we have our own policy about inactive administrators instead of having a steward come here and run that? Thanks. --atcovi (talk) 16:38, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

We only need our own policy if it were to differ from global policy. What differences do you propose? -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 16:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
And that is a global policy? I thought there is a custom not to demote inactive admins and it is even written somewhere.--Juandev (discusscontribs) 04:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
See meta:Requests for comment/Activity levels of advanced administrative rights holders. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 13:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
• I don't think we have a policy. We have never removed for inactivity. It was tried once, a disaster. However, if we don't establish a policy, stewards will follow the global policy. The global inactivity standard is very low, i.e., no edits or logged actions for two years. However, there is a problem. Once a user has been notified, the stewards may interpret the policy as requiring local consensus to keep the rights, even if the user responds. That can create a disruptive discussion.
• It is clear that the intention is that local community wishes be followed. So we need to develop a policy on this. If rights happen to be removed while the local community wants to keep them, any bureaucrat may restore them. They are not claiming authority over Wikiversity. However, it would be much cleaner to have a policy. --Abd (discusscontribs) 23:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

## VisualEditor News #1—2015

18:30, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I found a website with steam tables copyrighted under (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 US). Donolobo and I would like to write quizzes for them. Is it legal to copy these tables and put them on a Wikiversity page? We have two reasons to copy the table instead of referencing to them:

1. We want only a small portion of the table for a given wikiquiz
2. We want to ensure that the site is not taken down or moved, especially just before a test.

Thanks --guyvan52 (discusscontribs)

This gets ugly. See the background information at Wikipedia: Creative Commons#License proliferation and incompatibility. The issue is that CC-BY-SA and CC-BY-NC-SA are not compatible. That means you can't take any existing content here and add it to the page you create, as that would violate the license it was originally created under. You could create a new page of CC-BY-NC-SA content, but when you save the page you agree to release the contribution under CC-BY-SA, which would violate the agreement of the content you're using. The page you create couldn't be included in any other content here, as it would violate the license of both the page it comes from and the page it gets added to. The only thing I can think of that might work would be to capture the content as an image or file of some type and then upload the file here. Tag that upload as CC-BY-NC-SA. Link to the uploaded file, but don't include it in any pages. The intent would be the same as our use of Fair Use copyrighted content.
The other option would be to ensure that the Wayback Machine at archive.org has a copy of the content you want. Reference it in the original source as long as it is available, and switch to the archive.org copy if the original ever disappears. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 17:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
If the goal is permanence then I'd agree with Dave, archive the original and don't include more than small quotations from it in Wikiversity. Another good web archiving tool is Webcite: http://webcitation.org/archive.phpSam Wilson ( ) … 23:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I never understood copyright law when it comes to posting small excerpts. Both tables that Donolobo and I posted at User:Donolobo/Sandbox 01 are already small portions of these tables:
Does this change anything regarding the legality of using this material?--guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 17:31, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Short quotations from copyrighted sources are generally allowed under two rules: fair use and de minimus. In this case the license is "almost good" for usage of the whole. The problem is that it's an NC license, non-commercial usage only. There is no question about legality, if the terms of the license are followed. The question is WMF policy.
The point is that we copy copyrighted content frequently in resources, quoting for purpose of commentary or criticism. It is commonly done on Wikipedia. No copyright tags are used. It's de minimus, not something that would impact the value of the copyright. We do not have to stand on our heads to do this.
There is another issue here. These are tables, basically the output of a program using a formula. The "work" is copyrighted, the presentation perhaps, but that's a bit iffy. Anyone watching Commons for a while, as I've been, can get how incredibly complicated copyright can be, and can understand what a task the WMF took on to provide "free content," freely copyable, because that task serves for profit re-users, who may not be protected by fair use and who are not Non-Commercial. Why this was done, I'm not sure. "Free" sounds good. In fact, what the policies do is to harness the volunteers to save for-profit users the work, and the projects, to some extent, suffer a loss of quality. But it is what it is, and is established WMF policy. ::::Commons Home says "a database of 24,711,839 freely usable media files." That lies. It is really a database of so many files that nobody has yet successfully tagged as having a problem, and the problems can be quite obscure, and often files are hosted for years before anyone combing obsessively over that huge database, finds that, say, the image includes some other copyrighted image, such as a toy in a photo, and therefore the image is a "derivative work" and therefore subject to the original toy copyright. Delete. Or in some countries a photo of a building is covered by the copyright of the architect, and for 70 years after his or her death. It can get insanely complex. And, of course, decisions are being made by volunteers, some of whom become expert, some of whom merely become opinionated. --21:27, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The Wikipedia policy on copyrighted text: w:Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Text. How much is "extensive" is a judgment call. If you use too much, but not egregiously too much -- don't copy the whole table! -- you might be warned. Nobody is going to beat you up. Wikipedia doesn't contemplate what we call "educational resources," and you might have a need to copy more than Wikipedia would allow. My general advice: consider the welfare of the project. Do not sacrifice resource quality for obsessive compliance with copyright. Just be reasonable about it, be appropriately careful, but also put the students first. And then be responsive if someone has a problem with it. Be sure to attribute. However, you could also create your own tables, using formulae and a spreadsheet, and put them up freely. Be practical, be fair, be nice, be happy! --Abd (discusscontribs) 21:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I think I will place small portions of the table into the questions and probably use less precision. The tables are unlikely to be used for commercial research and I don't think textbook writers are likely to "steal" questions that are in a public database. If anybody complains we can just change the numbers slightly and include a warning that this isn't "real" steam...And of course, I will attribute.--guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 02:04, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

## Files

Is there a reason to host images here at Wikiversity? Why not to use Commons depositories. Others can use them if they are on Commons and there are more people, who can handle them.--Juandev (discusscontribs) 13:40, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Fair use images must be hosted here, as they will be deleted at Commons. There have also been past issues where free images have disappeared at Commons, with no source for recovery and no cooperation there to transfer the deleted images back here. Those who have been bitten before post images here instead. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 13:44, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
I presume "fair use" would include images of small excerpts from tables with that persnickety CC BY-NC-SA license, right? (By the way, I found an open source matlab code that circumvents all this by allowing us to construct our own steam table).--guyvan52 (discusscontribs) 20:19, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Technically, Fair Use only addresses copyrighted materials. It doesn't really apply to open, non-commercial work, as almost all of the court decisions regarding Fair Use have to do with impacting the market value of the copyrighted work. An option for content here is probably to upload the images, tag them as CC-BY-NC-SA, and link to them where needed. Better would be to leave it on the original source and link to that if you can. Using an open tool to generate similar content is even better. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 01:20, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
The problem is what is called "non-free use." The CC-BY-NC-SA license, if I'm correct, restricts commercial usage. It *is* copyrighted. WMF policy requires a non-free use rationale, which boils down to fair use. Here is the situation: a commercial user cannot use that work without permission, except if they can claim fair use. Some could. The WMF, however, wants all content to be 'free use" allowing commercial re-use. However, it recognizes that this could damage content, so projects are allowed to have their own non-free use policy. The critical interests of the WMF are satisfied by having machine-readable tags that point to all fair use content, so that a commercial re-user can find it. However, the policy is designed for images, and the tags are on the images. They don't actually contemplate fair use *text*. Where would the tag go? Is there fair use text on Wikipedia? Yes, certainly, and there is on Wikiquote. There are no tags. An example: [1], a whole page of quotations. The whole site is like that, for modern authors. Marshallsumter may be amused seeing that. He was banned on Wikipedia for creating collections of quotations, allegedly it was copyvio. Wikipedia went completely insane over this.
The Wikiquote page on copyright has this: "much of the content on Wikiquote is derivative of copyrighted material and is used under the "fair use" clause of U.S. copyright law." When I proposed more liberal fair use standards here, years ago, there were screams that this violated WMF policy, even though the WMF clearly allowed the wikis to write their own policies. So now I notice that the entire site of Wikiquote (and apparently all language editions) is claiming fair use for text,[2], and without any Non-free Use Rationale tags. But note: though Wikiquote content is licensed under the CC-BY-SA and the GFDL, much of the content on Wikiquote is derivative of copyrighted material and is used under the "fair use" clause of U.S. copyright law. And then there is a section covering Fair Use, and this appears to apply here, easily: [3]. --Abd (discusscontribs) 02:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

OK.--Juandev (discusscontribs) 23:46, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

## Can I embed Google Maps of historic and scientific events on Wikiversity?

My web site, MyReadingMapped.com, has over 150 free Google Maps of historic and scientific events I am willing to share with Wikiversity that can be embedded directly on Wikiversity pages if the coding would allow it. My maps have been recognized and linked to by universities, libraries and government agencies for their quality and educational value. And I have a page on my site that shows how teachers and university professors are using my maps in the classroom.

The maps are referenced and linked to high quality resources on a placemarker basis to universities, Jstor, government agencies, Wikipedia, and the media. So you won't find a citation for the map because the citations are in each placemarker.

Many of the maps combine issues not normally associated together in a map. For example showing the topography of the Thermohaline Circulation, combining the American Revolution with the early years of the U.S. Industrial Revolution to how each affected the other and how they related to the unavoidable Civil War, the geography of the Koppen climate classification system, plate tectonics where you can zoom in on volcanoes, surmounts, hydrothermal vents, submarine fracture zones and mid-ocean ridges on the plate edges. The topics cover geology, paleontology, ancient ruins, migration due to climate change, sunken ships, disease outbreaks, war, and more.

If I cannot embed the map, can I add an external link that goes to the original Google Map on Google's server? Thus avoiding my web site. Like the over 30 external links I have on Wikipedia. For example the external link on Wikipedia's Plate Tectonics page that states:

Google Map of the Topography of Plate Tectonics that enables you to zoom in on submarine mid ocean ridges, fracture zones, ocean trenches, thermal vents and submarine volcanoes.

Unfortunately, I cannot allow the maps to be edited by just anybody because I need to control the content and the safety of these maps because they are embedded on my web site and on school web sites across the country by teachers who trust me for the content. Teachers I have found distrust Wikipedia due to the ability of just anyone making edits and questioned why I link to Wikipedia so much.

While at lunch I thought of a way users can edit on Wikiversity without altering the original map. Place a image of the map on the original content page with a link to an embedded map page. Then under the embedded map would be a place for users to add their text content with their own external link to their own Google map containing their placemarkers and addtional in depth information.

Pragmaticstatistic (discusscontribs) 18:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I think linking to the source Google maps would be a welcome addition to our various learning projects, similar to what you have done with Wikipedia. Unfortunately, the very issues of control that you mention regarding your own site would make linking there less effective for us. We prefer to 'set learning free', and find that control isn't typically necessary when there are alternative approaches for everyone to share their knowledge. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 19:33, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
So I am allowed to add external links? Your control issue discussion seems to hedge on an answer. Yes or No? And, is there a limit before some editor considers it spam? Sorry for being so specific, but a few Wikipedia editors considered my maps spam, while most welcomed them as educational. I actually had more than 30 but many were removed, while the 30 that are still there were not considered spam. Their policy is totally inconsistent. If there is no external section on a page can I add one?
My intent here is not so much to drive traffic to my site. My site does fine on its own (over 413,000) and by submitting the Google URL it avoids my site. However the maps do contain a link to my site because many visitors found the original version in maps.googel.com without knowing who created the map. So if they want to see more of them they need to go to my site.
My main intent is to solve the problem that according to US News, 30% of the first year college students drop out due to lack of commitment and being ill prepared, while half of the college students never graduate. Also studies show that in general online courses have a poor retention rate and suffer from poor reading comprehension. While other studies indicate digital education fails without an emphasis on pedagogy. That means brick and mortar schools, online courses, and likely Wikiiversity are not effective. I believe my maps will help to solve that problem by drawing on their natural fascination for maps, and creating maps that are a directory to multiple issues that link all over the web from within a personalized Self-Learning Environment (SOLE). And, teacher response to my maps demanded I switch from being a 250 page blog to being a .com site so it won't be blocked by their school servers Pragmaticstatistic (discusscontribs) 22:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you can link to Google Maps. Please don't link to your personal website. That would be seen as promotional. Thanks! -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 23:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
For your approval, here is my first map placed on Plate tectonics and the structure of the Earth's crust page. Pragmaticstatistic (discusscontribs) 02:00, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
That looks good. Many pages with an external link like that will separate the link from the description with a hyphen or colon. Also note that internal links are created using [[ page ]] syntax. See the correction to your entry in the paragraph above this one. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 03:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I added a lot, check them out. Many of them make a perfect match to the course presented and in some cases is the only significant content on the page.Pragmaticstatistic (discusscontribs) 12:07, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Check out a page I am working on that promotes MyReadingMapped's sharing of maps with Wikiversity in order to drive traffic to Wikiversity in order to acquire course materials. Please let me know if you have a problem promoting the relationship and if the wording is acceptable. the page is as preview pafe that is not yet published.
• Except it's published here, of course, if it worked, which it doesn't. ("Invalid security token"). Pragmatic, if this were Wikipedia, you'd very probably be blocked by now. The whole concept of "driving traffic" and "promoting the relationship" is making me edgy. It would drive Wikipedians clean up the wall. Back up. Slow down. You've added some maps. Great! Learn to work with the community, and you'll be fine. If you want to promote your site though, as distinct from using it, you are going to run into problems. This is not the place to do that. --Abd (discusscontribs) 23:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

## Volcanoes, list

I would like to take a great organization of our volcano resources: Volcanoes, list one step further if this meets with approval of the various contributors. The lecture/article Volcanoes already mentions several directly. Each of the volcanoes mentioned in the resource: Volcanoes, list can be extensive resources themselves about the geology and volcanology of each volcano with more images.

Here's my suggestions.

1. For each individual volcano, for example, Volcanoes, list/Mount Vesuvius can be moved to Volcanoes/Mount Vesuvius.
2. Volcanoes, list has geographic classifications of these volcanoes that can be resources of their own. For example, Volcanoes, list#Ring of fire would be great as Volcanoes/Ring of fire. As a separate resource, the planetology and volcanology of the ring of fire can be discussed.
3. When I bring the resource Tephra layers online, it will involve chronologically significant volcanic eruptions. These volcanoes (each) can then be described as another subpage of volcanoes.
4. Tephra layers could also be a subpage of volcanoes as Volcanoes/Tephra layers even though many of the oldest ones are not yet correlated with specific volcanoes.
5. This may mean that the redirects to Volcanoes, list have to be changed and it may be better to have Volcanoes, list moved to Volcanoes/Geography or Volcanoes/Planetary science.

Suggestions, comments, criticisms welcome! What do you think? --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 21:30, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Works for me. Perhaps User:Pragmaticstatistic would be willing to add a Google Map of volcanoes as well. We should also set up redirects from Volcano and Volcanos to the project's main page. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 22:24, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Structurally, I'd see the top level resource being Volcano (a resource about the phenomenon) Then there would be Volcano/List, with subpages with lists of volcanoes organized in various ways. There would be a master list of all volcanoes, by name. Under that list would be individual volcano studies. So .... Volcano/List/Vesuvius. Some lists might be simply category displays.
I think of a top-level resources as being a topic on which there might be a class in a university. Various resources used in the class are then organized under that, as subpages. There are, of course, cross-links where appropriate. Notice that the subpage link allows linking to a "sister subpage," that is, another subpage of the same page supra. Ultimately, Wikiversity resources may become Wikibooks, and the page structure described allows easy re-use and export and renaming of an entire structure, which, if made with care, will not require editing individual pages to avoid broken internal resource links. --Abd (discusscontribs) 17:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
The reason why I never made a volcano specific Google Map is because one already exists. See the following map:
There are other volcano maps on Wikipedia, for example List of volcanoes in Costa Rica that have a box in the upper right corner for Google Maps that go to a map like this one below.
But if you check out the map you will see that the volcanoes are numbered rather than named and there is no content or link that goes to a page about that volcano. Also many of the placemarkers miss their target. This seems to me to be a situation where an automated procedure that took a spread sheet the Wiki list coordinates that had little involvement by a human to see if it hit its target. The links in the individual volcano placemarkers all go to the same list of volcanoes rather to content about the mountain. Wikipedia has lots of these and they seem to be set up for Wikipedia users to edit, but I do not know how they did it. Also, as you can see from this sample, no one ever participated in editing or contributing to it, and this map has been online for over two years that I am aware of. So all the concern about being able to edit my maps is totally unfounded since no one ever edited those on Wikipedia. Wikipedia only began doing this after I had placed several of my maps on their site and got into discussions with editors who wanted to edit my maps.
As for many of the maps I have made on MyReadingMapped.com, I obtained coordinates from Wikipedia lists on various subjects and created a better organization via a Google Map than the list. If Marshallsumter can assist in collecting the data, I am willing to assist with the project.
It might help me if we set up a Wikiversity Google Map account that can be accessed by a team of collaborators because already having 160 Google Maps for MyReadingMapped might limit making maps for my needs. I have no idea how many more maps Google will allow me to make using my account. If someone from Wikiversity can contact Heather Folsom, product manager at Google MyMap at hfolsom@google.com maybe we can set this up so that I can help without affecting my account. She and I have a rocky relationship because I criticized the MyMap rollout on my blog when their upgrade on my maps nearly destroyed my web site and maps and then I ended up assisting her with their problems when she contacted me. Pragmaticstatistic (discusscontribs) 01:57, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
• Wikipedia prohibits role accounts, like what you have suggested. We might consider one, but I don't see the need, and it creates security risks.
• Nobody officially represents Wikiversity, to make a request like that. Any user may assist you, and I assume that any user may do what you have done with Google. If Google Maps are being used here, it might help. I highly recommend that you avoid irritating the Google person! Help, yes, constructive criticism, okay, complaint, not so good, anger, almost guaranteed to cause problems with anyone.
• Wikipedia may have problems with original research, but we won't. (Notice, a problem will exist if someone thinks that a map is original research. Even if you think it's just a compilation of data from reliable sources, like a wiki article.) There also may be problems with many off-wiki links. (There, for sure, here, it's possible.) Just be nice, if any problems come up. Ask for assistance, don't thrash about. Good luck! --Abd (discusscontribs) 17:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
If Marshallsumter wants me to assist, please have him contact me so I understand criteria he is seeking. However, I would rather collaborate by email rather than via these public talk pages. As for getting upset with Google, I helped them by showing them all the things they got wrong that caused errors in 160 maps and 250 pages on my site due to their MyMaps upgrade, and I assisted by offering solutions. What I got for helping is another round of errors that required correcting. The 2 month correction process cut my web site visitors in half.--Pragmaticstatistic (discusscontribs) 19:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Regarding 'I would rather collaborate by email rather than via these public talk pages.', please note that a wiki is public collaboration. It doesn't work to just communicate privately with a single contributor, because it isn't a single contributor's project. The project belongs to everyone, which is why Marshallsumter asked here before embarking on restructuring it. If you'd like to contribute, please work with all of us to do so. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 22:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I'll try it, but I would prefer to do it on a page solely devoted to the project. Not here. Please have someone contact me.--67.8.189.158 (discuss) 21:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
I recommend using Talk:Volcanoes to continue the discussion. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 22:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

## Searching musicians

Hi,

I'm a regular contributor of the french version of Wikiversity. Since a few months, I try to write some music lessons, especially for jazz improvisation : https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/D%C3%A9partement:Jazz

I would like to know if there is here musicians who are interested in the same way and I hope to begin a collaboration with some others jazz-players, ideas exchange, bit of scores, tips, etc.

You can answer here or on my own page of discussion : https://fr.wikiversity.org/wiki/Discussion_utilisateur:Thierry613

Thanks a lot.

Thierry

PS Please excuse me for my poor english...

## csc in trigonometry?

Hi ,

When I was editing the Trignomentry project , I stumbled on an odd issue. What is csc? To me , it is cosec. This is the first time I have seen this ratio being used. Here , csc is unrecognised. We always use cosec(1/sin) instead.

Now , when I was replacing instances of csc with cosec , I got parsing errors. It looked like this:-
Failed to parse (unknown function "\cosec"): \sec(90-\theta)=\cosec\theta

In
Failed to parse (unknown function "\cosec"): \sec(90-\theta)=\cosec\theta .
It seems that the parser does not recognise cosec.
Can someone enable cosec for this type? Or , explain what could I do instead? Should I use /operatorname instead? --Leaderboard (discusscontribs) 18:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

$csc(\theta) = \sec(90 - \theta).$ Hope this helps. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 01:51, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
That's what is already specified. But I want to change csc to cosec(see above). How? It breaks if I try to do so.--Leaderboard (discusscontribs) 02:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
You can check Math markup language for alternatives but I think it only handles cosecant as csc rather than cosec or cosecant, for formula or equation evaluation. For entries only you could just write:
$cosec(\theta) = \sec(90 - \theta).$ --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 04:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

## Tables of OLMS (US government) data suitable for project?

It was suggested that I use Wikiversity for my project, but by someone who isn't a Wikiversity editor. The project is for the most part simply collecting data from the US Office of Labor-Management Standards on unions, including membership and financial data, graphing it, and preparing it for charts on respective Wikipedia articles. Essentially, most of the content would simply be tables, paired with basic instructions on keeping them updated. The data is primarily intended not to be interpretive, aside from very rare and obvious corrections.

My main motivation for this project is that I have a folder full of spreadsheets that I'd like to divorse myself of. :) However it's also a question of maintainability if I'm the only one with the prepared intermediary data. Alternately, if anyone knows a superior way to collect this information online in a Wikipedian-friendly manner, please let me know. Djr13 (discusscontribs) 04:14, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Welcome! Interpretive isn't an issue here. We accept original research, as long is it is indicated as such. But it doesn't sound like that's a primary concern for your project.
I see three possibilities. One would be to upload the content directly to Commons. If Commons won't accept it, the files could be uploaded here and tagged as Fair Use (if need be). A third option would be to use Wikidata. Wikidata may be the best choice for the data itself, and then a learning project could be established here for any analysis or summaries you'd like to have. But I say that never having created any Wikidata myself, so i'm not sure how that will work.
The only real caution I have for you is to make sure that any content developed here will be welcomed back at Wikipedia once you're done. Some Wikipedia editors discourage the use of Wikiversity as a source. They tend to be more willing to link here using the Wikiversity template than to use content there from here. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 15:21, 1 March 2015 (UTC)