Talk:COVID-19/Lockdown

Restored deleted content from the article "Efficacy of lockdown", that was replaced by redirect - splitted the content in two articles and created links from the main COVID-19 page to both contributions from the root page COVID-19. --Bert Niehaus (discuss • contribs) 07:57, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Animation

This animation in question.

@Dan Polansky and Bert Niehaus: this is where we sort out the question. I find discussions like these frustrating (on both Wikiversity and Wikipedia) and would like to experiment with on how these discussions are conducted. If you don't like my format, just revert my edits. and resolve this question the old fashioned "wiki" way.--Guy vandegrift (discuss • contribs) 15:43, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Guy vandegrift

This will be my space, but I remain neutral. Each of you make your best case regarding this image. You may edit your section as you wish. You may also make comments on other people's spaces, but don't do it twice if your first comment was deleted by the "owner" of that section. The xxx space is so others can join the conversatoin.

Also, sometimes brevity is a virtue.--Guy vandegrift (discuss • contribs) 16:10, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Dan Polansky

An animation showing human faces drawn in cartoon style is fundamentally unscientific and non-neutral. It bewitches instead of teaching. It is ideology or propaganda. If the concept of flattening the curve needs to be shown visually, it should be via static image with no human faces. The image can show two curves, one unflattened and the other one flattened; they can be next to each other or overlayed. A grave disadvantage of an image is that it does not have a propositional form, and therefore is not exposed to falsification/refutation; it is propositions (sentences) that are threatened with refutation. The concept is clear enough without an image: a curve with a lower peak creates less peak load on a resource (here the medical system), which helps the resource cope. The difficulty is not about the concept in principle but about the actual quantitative relationships: how much does it need flattening? Is the objective flattening or zero load? For how long will one need to be doing the flattening? What are all the concerns impacted by an intervention and which weights should be assigned to them, on different time scales (concern a month from now vs. a concern 3 years from now)? --Dan Polansky (discuss • contribs) 16:29, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Bert Niehaus

Feel free to visualize the curves with SIR-model and different parameters and replace the animation above with your own animation without the cartoon. --Bert Niehaus (discuss • contribs) 14:45, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Why does it have to be an animation? Animations are distracting. Otherwise, I can look around Commons to see whether we can find some neutral image for flattening the curve. And the flatten-the-curve principle is not even the most important aspect of the lockdown to visualize; the number of weeks or months for which the lockdown is required could be visualized, the harm caused by the lockdown could be visualized, etc. Why is only the alleged positive being visualized, and the negatives are left without visualization? Doing so is in the nature of propaganda. --Dan Polansky (discuss • contribs) 15:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Please feel free to discuss scientific literature about visualizations and add static images for those who prefer that. --Bert Niehaus (discuss • contribs) 15:35, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

There is no answer above and no link to a place where an answer can be read. And it addresses me in imperative, whereas I am no-one's subordinate or subject. Not good. --Dan Polansky (discuss • contribs) 16:05, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You mentioned that the animation has a cartoon, I added another animation according to your recommendation to remove the cartoon part - used from Wiki Commons showing also R and S curve. If you want static images please feel free to add them too. An animation is used to show the parameter dependencies of the curves. "Animations are distracting" is an educational comment about the usefulness of animations as visualizations. --Bert Niehaus (discuss • contribs) 16:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Curve with the SIR model shows the number of infected, preventive measures try to flatten the curve and move from one curve to another shape of the curve. Efficacy of preventive measures is subject to scientific publications in epidemiology and health care, where additional papers can be added.--Bert Niehaus (discuss • contribs) 16:32, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

The animation you added for the SIR model is at least somewhat scientifically meaningful. However, you kept the propaganda cartoon in place. The dispute is about the propaganda cartoon. I raised objections to the unscientific and non-neutral character of the cartoon, and I believe these should either be addressed or the cartoon should be removed. --Dan Polansky (discuss • contribs) 16:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Voting

On motion to remove the image.