Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-29

From Wikiversity
Jump to navigation Jump to search

This is the chat from our meeting on 29th March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, Phidias, Zaharias

15:29 <Daan>Shall we discuss Thucydides?
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, we could start it officially then now
15:30 <Daan>The text of today was less interesting than other times.
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>oh, why was that ?
15:30 <Daan>In my view.
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I found it interesting, much more different places in action
15:30 <Daan>Too many facts on what has already happened: plundering Atica, plundering the coast of the Peloponnesus.
15:31 <Daan>Yes.
15:31 <Daan>I mostly liked the Lesbian speech.
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup they gave their arguments why they want to join hands with Sparta and allies
15:31 <Daan>The Lesbians said that Athens didn't put effort in fighting Persia anymore, instead tried to subdue their allies.
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Mytilene revolts against Athens
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall)
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz># campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Speech in Olympia
15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so what should we then do first, the speech ?
15:32 - Phidias joined
15:32 <Daan>Hi Phidias.
15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Phidias
15:32 <Phidias>Hi
15:32 <Daan>We just started on the text discussion.
15:32 <Daan>The Lesbian speech, does that sound interesting, or not.
15:32 <Phidias>ah, fine ... i still gotta read the passage :P
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, perhaps you still remember the text from previous times
15:33 <Daan>What is a Lesbian?
15:33 <Daan>Guys can be Lesbian.
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>a person coming from the island Lesbos :-)
15:33 <Phidias>an inhabitant of the isle lesbos :)

15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so guys that are the topics for today:
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Mytilene revolts against Athens
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall)
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Speech in Olympia
15:35 <Daan>The last one is the Lesbian speech.
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Phidias I have notes in German if you quickly wanna read:
15:36 <Daan>I got a phone call.
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan - it is me - I am testing how concentrated you are :-)
15:37 * Erkan_Yilmaz feels alone
15:37 <Daan>I am here!
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great, I hope you didn't quickly end the call ?
15:38 <Daan>Okay, the Lesbian speech.
15:38 <Daan>No.
15:38 <Daan>And ended quickly out of itself.
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hey Zaharias is chatting me :-)
15:38 <Daan>Who is he?
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you will see, he comes now here
15:38 - Zaharias joined
15:38 <Daan>ahaha
15:39 <Zaharias>hello
15:39 <Daan>Hi Zaharias
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Zaharias
15:39 <Zaharias>Did you start?
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not really
15:39 <Zaharias>ok

Mythelenian speech in Olympia

[edit | edit source]

15:39 <Daan>Yes, we were discussing the Lesbian speech. in Olympia.
15:39 <Daan>I said about it: "The Lesbians said that Athens didn't put effort in fighting Persia anymore, instead tried to subdue their allies."
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Zaharias you read the text or remember from back in school ?
15:40 <Daan>But the Athenians say in Book I that the allies were not puting an effort behind the war versus Persia.
15:40 <Zaharias>Lesbians?
15:40 <Zaharias>I remamber a few things
15:40 <Daan>From the island of Lesbos.
15:40 <Zaharias>aaaaaaaa

15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so for the today contents are:
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Mytilene revolts against Athens
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall)
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Speech in Olympia

15:41 <Daan>So, the athenians had to subdue their allies.
15:41 <Daan>Now, the Lsebians rebelled (Mytilene).
15:41 <Daan>And joined Sparta.
15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Athenians HAD to
15:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that sounds like a problem on side of the allies of Athens ?
15:42 <Daan>Maps:
15:42 <Daan>
15:42 <Zaharias>Well Athens was something like a "dictator" with allies
15:43 <Daan>
15:43 <Daan>Yes.
15:44 <Daan>Erkan, do you have something that interested you about the text?
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about the speech ?
15:45 <Daan>The whole text, or the speech.
15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the speech itself sees only the Mythelenian side
15:45 <Zaharias>In my opinion I think that Sparta didn't do that with its allies because one of its allies was Korinthos
15:45 <Zaharias>do you have a link to the speech?
15:46 <Daan>So, what was special about Sparta and Corinth?
15:46 * Erkan_Yilmaz searches speech link
15:46 <Zaharias>Corinth was 3rd in "power"
15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz> aphorism 9
15:46 <Zaharias>thx
15:46 <Daan>Aphorisms 8 to 14.
15:46 <Zaharias>ok
15:48 <Zaharias>I bookmarked the link because I can't read it now(too big)

What is special about Corinth + Sparta ?

[edit | edit source]

15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>special about Sparta + Corinth:
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>no prob Zaharias
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corinth has a good location (from map point) in the Peloponnesus
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is trading
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>its influence extends with her ships
15:49 <Zaharias>This is a factor
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta:

15:49 <Zaharias>Well I think corinth was more enemy of Athens than ally of Sparta
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>excellent hoplite army
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>stable constitution
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>(meaning constitution stable, but politics might change)
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>(due to ephors and kings)
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Zaharias: I agree
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens limited the Corinthians interests since both have ships and must hinder each other
15:50 <Daan>I don't know much about it, other then that the text said that Sparta and Corinth were equal allies.
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Sparta was the weaker in one sense
15:51 <Zaharias>Yeah there was great competition between Corinth and Athens
15:51 <Daan>But, Lesbos says that Lesbos used to be equal to Athens.
15:51 <Daan>But, Athens subdued many allies, thereby Lesbos become weaker.
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, because they provided ships like Chios
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also Corcyra
15:51 <Daan>Both Corinth and Sparta hadn't conquered much territory.
15:52 <Zaharias>territory- land?
15:52 <Daan>Just like the Delian-Athinian League, the Peloponnesian League was mainly defensive.
15:52 <Zaharias>If yes
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Sparta didn't want because the more they conquer the more they have to take care of - therefore they let the allies (oligarchic) goverments mostly autonomous
15:53 <Daan>Yes.
15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Corinth I think was eager to conquer more
15:53 <Daan>Yes.

location of Corinth is less good than that of Athens ?

[edit | edit source]

15:53 <Daan>The location of Corinth is less good than that of Athens, i think.
15:53 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks at the map
15:53 <Daan>Athens is located next to a wide open sea.
15:54 <Zaharias>I don't think so
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I also disagree
15:54 <Daan>While Corinth has to pass a large Sea Channell to enter the open sea.
15:54 <Zaharias>Corinth could go much more easily to Italy
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corinth practically controls Istmus AND
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ships can be transported form the Saronic Gulf to the gulf of Corinth by land
15:54 <Daan>That is right.
15:55 <Zaharias>yes
15:55 <Daan>So, they are potentially equal.
15:55 <Daan>I had a lot of attention on city growth at the university.
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if Corinth would have done better they had the chance to conquer Piraeus once
15:55 <Daan>A whole course was dedicated to it.
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but they missed it :-)
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, what was told in that course Daan ?
15:56 <Daan>Cities on a river are in a better position than cities like Athens and Corinth, which have only the sea.
15:56 <Daan>Cities in a river delta, i mean.
15:56 <Zaharias>ah yes
15:56 <Zaharias>i agree
15:56 <Zaharias>But
15:56 <Daan>Shanghai, Rotterdam are two of the three main ports in the world.
15:56 <Zaharias>there are no big river delta in greece
15:56 <Zaharias>:D
15:57 <Zaharias>Yup but Piraeus and Thessaloniki are very big too

Greek ships - today and past

[edit | edit source]

15:57 <Zaharias>And the greek ships
15:57 <Zaharias>are the most
15:57 <Zaharias>in the world
15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>today ?
15:57 <Zaharias>yup
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have a number ?
15:58 <Zaharias>no
15:58 <Daan>Well, they had a lot of colonies in the Mediteranean.
15:58 <Daan>I don't know.
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>np
15:58 <Daan>Don't the Indonesians have more ships, for instance?
15:58 <Zaharias>w8 i will find one
15:58 <Zaharias>nop
15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw good chance to awaken Phidias again :-)
15:59 <Zaharias>marocco competes greece
15:59 <Daan>Whatabout the American transport ships for oil and consumer goods.
15:59 <Zaharias>w8 for numbers
15:59 <Daan>Oh, ships sailing with the Greek flag, you mean?
15:59 <Zaharias>yup
15:59 <Daan>So, the owner doesn't need to be Greek.
15:59 <Zaharias>This is not a problem for
15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wasn't there also once a famous Greek who had his money from ships ?
15:59 <Daan>Nice business.
15:59 <Zaharias>Onasis
16:00 <Zaharias>Well guys
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, that one
16:00 <Zaharias>ships with greek flag
16:00 <Zaharias>are the most
16:00 <Zaharias>but ships that have greek owners
16:00 <Zaharias>are much more
16:00 <Zaharias>Latsis
16:00 <Zaharias>Restis
16:00 <Daan>yes, worldwide?
16:00 <Zaharias>yup
16:01 <Zaharias>WE have many rich ship owners here
16:01 <Daan>So, the Greeks are the modern Dutch.
16:01 <Zaharias>I have read it in an encyclopedia
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>link ?
16:01 <Zaharias>In my home
16:01 <Zaharias>:D
16:01 <Zaharias>before 4-5 months
16:01 <Daan>Dutch ships dominated Northern Europe from the 15th to the 17th century.
16:01 <Zaharias>I know it
16:02 <Daan>And in the 17th century, Dutch ships dominated the world.
16:02 <Zaharias>And then Britain dominated thew world
16:02 <Daan>Yes.
16:02 <Daan>The Dutch even invested huge amount of money to conquer the world.
16:02 <Daan>The invaded Brazil.
16:03 <Zaharias>I will search for a link
16:03 <Daan>The plan was to conquer Brazil, than Argentina, and move tho the silver mines in Bolivia.
16:03 <Zaharias>the trading ships are the most
16:04 <Zaharias>not the war ships
16:04 <Zaharias>battle ships
16:04 <Daan>The Americans probably have the most warships.
16:05 <Zaharias>
16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I think back in Thucydides times they had 300 triremes
16:05 <Daan>The numbers mentioned by Thucydides are very low.
16:05 <Zaharias>For today
16:05 <Daan>A few thousand warriors and a few hundred ships.
16:06 <Zaharias>Well you should mention that great alexander
16:06 <Zaharias>had only 20.000 men
16:07 <Zaharias>And he conquered the half Asia!!!
16:07 <Zaharias>not the half
16:07 <Zaharias>about 1/4
16:07 <Zaharias>i think
16:07 <Zaharias>Until India
16:07 <Daan>Yes.
16:08 <Daan>I read in a book that Greek Buddhists in Afghanistan were the first to make Buddha statues.
16:08 <Daan>So, Buddha had a Greek nose.

troops of Athens, Sparta

[edit | edit source]

16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Athens could bring about 25000 men, Sparta - without Argos and Arcadia - about 35000
16:08 <Zaharias>
16:08 <Daan>has, on the statues.
16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagining Sitalces with his 150000 men
16:08 <Daan>You have looked it up, Erkan?
16:08 <Zaharias>Sitalces?
16:09 <Daan>Yes, that was a large army.
16:09 <Zaharias>Who is he?
16:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we had it in last meeting
16:09 <Daan>It was in book II.
16:09 <Daan>Sitalces is the king of the Odryssian Thracians.
16:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>
16:09 <Zaharias>ah Thrasians
16:09 <Daan>He ruled what is now Bulgaria, Greek Thrace, Turkish Thrace and southern Rumania.
16:10 <Daan>So, his realm was as big as the whole of all Greek territories combined.
16:10 <Zaharias>Who is Phidias?
16:11 <Daan>A guy.
16:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Phidias is quite quiet today :-(
16:11 <Zaharias>I think so too

Mythilene + the Peloponnesians

[edit | edit source]

16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so guys lets continue with Thucydides ?
16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so topics were
16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Speech in Olympia
16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Mytilene revolts against Athens
16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Plataea: escape of 212 people (over the Peloponnesian wall)
16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># Peloponnesians + allies plunder again in Attica
16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz># campaign of Athenian Asopios in Acarnania
16:22 <Daan>Mytilene
16:22 <Zaharia1>Well I think you should make the start
16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok
16:22 <Zaharia1>:D
16:23 <Daan>There was a lot of confusion on messages.
16:23 <Daan>Between Lesbos and the Peloponnesus.
16:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Mythilene wants to join Peloponnesians (after being rejected in the past) and Peloponnesians accept it this time
16:23 <Daan>Those places are far away, and it was noticeable in the text.
16:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what kind of confusion ?
16:24 <Daan>The Spartans attacked Athens, to help Lesbos.
16:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Spartans were preparing at Isthmus for the 2nd attack in Attica
16:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but the allies didn't come because harvest time
16:25 <Zaharia1>Well I think Spartans let Lesbos to join the league so as to weaken the Athens league
16:25 <Daan>But, they imagined that there were no athenians in Lesbos, because athens had a lot of ships in action near Attica.
16:25 <Daan>Yes.
16:25 <Daan>So, the Spartans retreated home.
16:25 <Zaharia1>yup
16:25 <Daan>In truth, Lesbos was being attacked by Athens.
16:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Zaharia1 yes, probably they learned from their failure with Corcyra (because of e.g. ships)
16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah that info with less ships came from Mythilene
16:26 <Daan>Later a Spartan slip into a Lesbian city.
16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>again a place where the people asking for Spartas help provide false info (intentionally?)
16:26 <Daan>To tell the Lesbians that support was coming.
16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and Mythilene got courage again
16:26 <Daan>did they?
16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it tells
16:27 <Daan>I read it too quickly, perhaps.
16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"The Mitylenians upon this took courage, and laid aside the idea of treating with the Athenians;"
16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>25
16:27 <Daan>Yes.
16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so this time the Peloponnesians really wanna do some action to help a defecting ally of Athens
16:28 <Daan>Yes.
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>arguments told by Mythilene are e.g.
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens weakened by plaque
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>too much money expenditure
16:28 <Daan>But, Lesbos would be a strong ally.
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta will get ships of Mythilene
16:28 <Daan>Potidaea was small.
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>a signal to other not content members of Delian league to defect
16:28 <Daan>Also.
16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also no word more that Sparta does not help people who seek help (because they have the slogan to liberate Greece from Athens "tyranny")
16:30 <Daan>Yes.
16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but unfortunately first efforts to help Mythilene don't work out :-(
16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and Mythilene gets blockaded by sea and land

Sparta + Athens : oligarchy and democracy

[edit | edit source]

16:30 <Zaharia1>well
16:30 <Zaharia1>there is sth that i think i should mention
16:31 <Zaharia1>sparta had tyranny
16:31 <Daan>Yes, they subdued the Messenians.
16:31 <Zaharia1>and athens with PEricles had democracy
16:31 <Zaharia1>There is the difference
16:31 <Zaharia1>BUT
16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, Sparta had oligarchy
16:31 <Daan>But, most inhabitants of Athens were foreigners.
16:32 <Daan>Athens was only for a small % of the population a democracy, but many of them were poor.
16:32 <Zaharia1>athens was very aggressive with its allies in the league
16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean that only citizens of AThens had rights, e.g. to vote, get official positions, ...
16:32 <Zaharia1>Believe me there were not many inhabitants in athens
16:33 <Daan>Yes.
16:33 <Zaharia1>In sparta there were NO inhabitants
16:33 <Zaharia1>For lesbos
16:33 <Daan>citizens.
16:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what means inhabitants ?
16:34 <Zaharia1>foreign
16:34 <Zaharia1>people
16:34 <Zaharia1>I don't know how to say it
16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so in Sparta there was no "outsiders" ? I read somewhere that Sparta did regularly to kick out foreigners
16:34 <Zaharia1>i will tell you later
16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and Pericles told that they dont do this
16:35 <Zaharia1>about this
16:35 <Daan>Oh, that was what it was about.
16:35 <Zaharia1>Have you seen 300?
16:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes
16:35 <Daan>Pericles said something about freedom and the market in Sparta.
16:35 <Daan>What is 300?
16:35 <Zaharia1>i think that it does mention about
16:35 <Zaharia1>a movie
16:36 <Zaharia1>the myth with the foreign
16:36 <Zaharia1>Anyway
16:36 <Zaharia1>I think Sparta wanted some allies that had many ships
16:37 <Zaharia1>because it could beat athens in land
16:37 <Zaharia1>but in the sea
16:37 <Zaharia1>Was far away
16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"when the Lacedaemonians suspend their alien acts in favour of us and our allies, there being nothing in the treaty to prevent either one or the other: that we will leave the cities independent, if independent we found them when we made the treaty, and when the Lacedaemonians grant to their cities an independence not involving subservience to Lacedaemonian interests,"
16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>144
16:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean this Zaharia1 ?
16:38 <Zaharia1>nop
16:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, then we will talk later
16:38 <Zaharia1>I mean that Sparta didn't allow foreign people to stay longer than a day in sparta
16:38 <Zaharia1>Myth or reality?
16:38 <Zaharia1>Most say it was reality
16:39 <Zaharia1>*most people
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is the passage I have and the notes to the text tells what you say
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Sparta did this so people don't spy on their city
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. getting to know info on military forces and politics and such
16:40 <Zaharia1>yes
16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps you can find some more info for next time ?
16:40 <Zaharia1>if i attend
16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and no other city made this - only Sparta ?
16:40 <Zaharia1>yes
16:40 <Zaharia1>yup
16:40 <Zaharia1>only sparta
16:40 <Daan>sorry for not being very active.
16:40 <Zaharia1>np
16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting, that also eliminates influence from outside to come into Sparta
16:41 <Zaharia1>aha
16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so that could be one reason why Lykurg's constitution stayed over time ?
16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when new people are in town they tell what they do and what they heard, so not so much news is spread and with news happens discussion and change in society's morale perhaps
16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Sparta wanted to protect its society like this ?
16:42 <Zaharia1>yes
16:42 <Zaharia1>I think so
16:42 <Daan>Funny.
16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>on the contrast e.g. Athens who lived on ideas, discussion, philsophy

city of Sparta in modern times

[edit | edit source]

16:42 <Daan>Sparta is in a sense a small village.
16:42 <Daan>All cities back then would be villages now.
16:42 <Zaharia1>a small society
16:43 <Daan>Many modern villages are closed.
16:43 <Zaharia1>the main difference
16:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>
16:43 <Zaharia1>is that if you had noticed it
16:43 <Zaharia1>Spartans' interests was only war
16:43 <Daan>Beautiful place.
16:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>
16:44 <Daan>Yes.
16:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>
16:44 <Zaharia1>the city is beautiful
16:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so there is a new Sparta build next to ancient Sparta ?
16:44 <Zaharia1>yup
16:44 <Zaharia1>But it is a small town
16:44 <Daan>Probably has never been abandoned?
16:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>are there plans to rebuild for history purposes old Sparta ?
16:45 <Zaharia1>no
16:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-(
16:45 <Zaharia1>I think it was abandoded for some decades
16:45 <Daan>I will go now.
16:45 <Zaharia1>but i am not sure
16:45 <Zaharia1>ok
16:46 <Zaharia1>goodbye
16:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye Daan
16:46 <Daan>goodbye.

17:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok Zaharia1 I will publish the chat log without private info on en.WV
17:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>is that ok for you ?
17:20 <Zaharias>ok

  • Sparta and letting strangers stay only 1 day in Sparta


[edit | edit source]