Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-08

This is the chat from our meeting on 8th March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, mikeu, myrmikonos, pietrodn, Ramac

14:12 <Daan_>Shall we start with some serious Thucydides stuff?
14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Thukydides session: yes
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan can you post your topics ?
14:13 <Daan_>I will

themes

14:14 <Daan_>*Athenian campaign along the shores of Greece.
14:14 <Daan_>*King Perdiccas of Macedon switches sides to Athens for the third time, this time with the Thracians as allies.
14:14 <Daan_>*Funeral speech of Pericles, gives more insight on his ideas on Athenian imperialism.
14:14 <Daan_>*The Great pestilence of Athens, where animals die when they eat flesh of disseased humans.
14:14 <Daan_>I haven't written much text this time.
14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>np
14:14 <Daan_>I think the speech of Pericles has the most material for discussion.
14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we will write it together now :-)
14:15 <Daan_>Last time we discussed the Greek point of view, which was pro-Spartan.
14:15 <Daan_>And also the acts of king Archidamus.
14:15 <Daan_>Now we can discuss what the Athenians, and especially Pericles wanted to do.

King Perdiccas and Sitalces

14:16 <Daan_>King Perdiccas was cool in action again.
14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
14:16 <Daan_>Switching sides for the third!!! time.
14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos pietrodn Ramac you are still there ?
14:16 <pietrodn>yes
14:16 - Ramac quited (Nick collision from services.)
14:16 <Daan_>While he was the one to start the war anyway.
14:17 - Ramac joined
14:17 <myrmikonos>with 13%
14:17 <Daan_>Hi Ramac!
14:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably Perdikkas was a very flexible character - a freelancer :-)
14:17 <Daan_>A hobbyist.
14:18 <Ramac>hi :D
14:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Ramac
14:18 <Daan_>Did anyone read the text?
14:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Perdiakkas joining the Chalcidice offensive helped the Athenians
14:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also that Sitalces joined Athenians
14:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>reading: yes
14:18 <Daan_>I think it was the Sitalkis dude that made him flip sides.
14:19 <Daan_>The Odryssian Thracians were very large.
14:19 <Daan_>They owned a territory nearly as big as Greece.
14:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Nymphodoros was this dude :-)
14:19 <Daan_>So, Macedon was pretty small compared to them.
14:19 <Daan_>Sorry.
14:19 <Daan_>It was wednesday.
14:19 <Daan_>When i read the text.
14:19 <pietrodn>I read the text quickly
14:19 <Daan_>Good!
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Sitalces should help get the Thracian costal cities into Athenian hands
14:20 <Daan_>I will look forthe Sitalkis.
14:20 <pietrodn>I like very much Pericles' talk
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably to have good places to secure the trades from Bosporus regions
14:20 <Daan_>Pietro, we can discuss them at length.
14:21 <Daan_>it, i mean.
14:21 <Daan_>For the Thracians?
14:21 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: «probably to have good places to secure the trades from Bosporus regions» --- it is also the real reason of the war of Troy
14:21 <Daan_>Erkan?
14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and Perdikkas to help them in the hope to get down Potideia faster
14:21 <Daan_>Athens tried to get any ally it could get.
14:22 <Daan_>The Thracians could help secure the north.

why would Thracians help Athenians ?

14:22 <Daan_>But, why would the Thracians join?
14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>economy reasons are probably most of the times causes for war / fights
14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan_ that is a good question
14:23 <pietrodn>Perhaps they didn't like Sparta
14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did the Thracians have ships ? if not they made probably a deal with the Delian league and their ships ?
14:23 <Daan_>They were a bit primitive.
14:24 <Daan_>Thracians were like the Arabs or Mongols.
14:24 <Daan_>They lived on horseback.
14:24 <Daan_>In Tribes.
14:24 <pietrodn>Daan_: aren't they greek colonies?
14:24 <Daan_>No, Thracians are mostly like the Albanians.
14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or perhaps they wanted to join Athens more than Persia ? were there plans from Persia to do harm to Thracia ?
14:25 <Daan_>Albanians are a remnant of the Illyrians.
14:25 <Daan_>And Illyrians were close relatives to the Thracians and the Dacians.
14:25 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Persians were interesting in conquesting Thracia I think
14:25 <Daan_>Yes, parts of Thrace had been conquered by Persia.
14:26 <Daan_>But, there was nothing up north, except for some primite tribes.
14:26 <Daan_>Like the Thracians.
14:26 <pietrodn>In the Persian Wars, the persian army walked throgh Thracia, didn't they?
14:26 <pietrodn>*through
14:26 <Daan_>Yes.
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think so too - they went by land and also by sea
14:27 <Daan_>Both to the north and to the west, into Greece.
14:27 <Daan_>I will look for a map.
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>unfortunately my map from back then shows the Delian Leagues territory between Thracia and Persia - so regarding that Persia would have to cross Athenian territory :-) haha
14:27 <Daan_>w:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Achaemenid_Empire.jpg
14:28 <pietrodn>Daan_: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Alliances_in_the_Pelopennesian_War%2C_431_B.C._1.JPG
14:28 <Daan_>Thrace is neutral in your map, Pietro.
14:28 <Daan_>And Macedon is pro-Sparta.
14:29 <pietrodn>the southern path is pro-Athens
14:29 <Daan_>In the text, king Perdiccas only supported Athens when he couldn't keep in power otherwise.
14:29 <Daan_>Yes.
14:29 <Daan_>But, the king decides and the poplation has to suffer.
14:29 <pietrodn>http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Pelop_krieg1.png
14:30 <Daan_>Here, Macedon is clearly Spartan.
14:31 <Daan_>Also, Anakterion in the west is clearly Spartan.
14:31 <Daan_>It was mentioned in the text that Athens conquered it and that Corinth liberated it for the pro-Spartan faction.
14:32 * Erkan_Yilmaz just had a talk with a Japanese WV member
14:32 <Daan_>Okay
14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so we agree that maps are confusing ? ;-)
14:33 <Daan_>No, the first map didn';t clearly state that Macedon was pro-Spartan.
14:34 <Daan_>Sparta and allies were pretty small, if you look at the map.

translation of Thucydides text

14:34 <pietrodn>Daan_: Perdiccas was the son of the Macedonian king... perhaps the king was pro-Spartan
14:34 <pietrodn>am I wrong?
14:34 <Daan_>Perdiccas was the king.
14:34 <pietrodn>In Thucidides I read that it was the prince
14:34 <pietrodn>mmh
14:35 <Daan_>He flipped sides to Athens, when the athenians conquered the capital, or when the Thracians joined the athenian side.
14:35 <Daan_>Maybe i am wrong.
14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>anyways
14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Thracia joined hands with Athenians for some reason
14:35 <Daan_>That is right.
14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and Perdiccas also helped them at about the same time - so good cards for Athens it seems
14:36 <pietrodn>Daan_: «Thus Sitalces, son of Teres, King of the Thracians, and Perdiccas, son of Alexander, King of the Macedonians, became allies of Athens.»
14:36 <Daan_>Yes.
14:37 <Daan_>I was looking at the same text.
14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting
14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>my German text translates different
14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it says:
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>king of Macedon Perdikkas, who is son of Alexander
14:38 <Daan_>Pitty that Konstantinos isn't here.
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the prob with translations :-(
14:38 <Daan_>I understand.
14:39 <Daan_>But, in book one, Perdiccas is the king.
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if he is cited often from Thucydides he is a leading figure who influences decisions in his country
14:39 <Daan_>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdiccas_II_of_Macedon
14:39 <Daan_>Perdiccas II

speech of Pericles

14:40 <Daan_>What do you like about the speech of Pericles, Pietro?
14:41 - mikeu joined
14:41 <Daan_>Hi Mikeu!
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi mikeu
14:41 <pietrodn>The language... he was very good at speaking
14:41 <mikeu>hello everyone
14:41 <Daan_>He surely was.
14:41 <pietrodn>He was a great politician
14:41 <Daan_>He knows what to say to defend his cause.
14:42 <Daan_>Every cause can be defended, when you just know the right words. And Pericles is very good at it.
14:42 <pietrodn>oh yes
14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps he was good taught by sophists ? ,-)
14:42 <Daan_>:-)
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the eulogy was a motivation for the Athenians to continue on ?
14:43 <Daan_>What is eulogy?
14:43 <pietrodn>There were some good sophists in Greece
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the speech for the dead
14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true
14:44 <Daan_>I think it was a polite speech.
14:44 <Daan_>To celebrate a tradition.
14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: this is also the time of Socrates
14:44 <Daan_>Of Athens.
14:44 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosthenes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isocrates
14:44 <Daan_>That is true.
14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he was accused later at his trial of being a sophist, which he stated he is not
14:45 <Daan_>He praises Sparta, arch rival to Athens, directly and indirectly in various dialogues.
14:45 <Daan_>That is from the Wimkipedia article on Socrates.
14:45 - BotSottile joined
14:45 <Daan_>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates
14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>.wiki Socrates
14:45 <Daan_>Hi BotSottile!
14:46 <BotSottile>Hey :)
14:46 <pietrodn>Socrates
14:46 <unilinky>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates
14:46 <Daan_>"Despite claiming death-defying loyalty to his city, Socrates' pursuit of virtue and his strict adherence to truth clashed with the current course of Athenian politics and society.[8] He praises Sparta, arch rival to Athens, directly and indirectly in various dialogues."
14:46 <BotSottile>"Socrates (Greek: Σωκράτης c. 470 BCE–399 BCE[1]), was a Classical Greek philosopher." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates
14:46 - Ramac quited (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:46 <BotSottile>Hey Daan_.
14:46 <BotSottile>pietrodn: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Socrates?redirect=no
14:46 <Daan_>Pericles arranged truth for his interpretation.
14:47 - Ramac joined
14:47 <Daan_>Hi Ramac! Nice to have you around again!
14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well in Book II the reason for the eulogy is told as: the sacrifices are for the glory of the city and for the honor of the dead
14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book II, 42
14:49 <Daan_>Yes
14:49 <Daan_>I was also looking at II, 42
14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he talks in the speech about the constitution and of the people of AThens or better the polis
14:49 <Daan_>Pericles says that rich people would defend their wealth.
14:49 <Daan_>And poor people have no wealth to defend.
14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>richness: I wonder then why the Athenians punished allies who did not want to contribute their taxes :-)
14:50 <Daan_>Also, he says that Athens has to right to invade other city states, just because it is stronger.
14:50 <Daan_>They were weak, so Athens could take from them.
14:50 <pietrodn>Yes, it is also stated in the Melian dialogue
14:52 <Daan_>Didn't read it yet.
14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>me neither
14:52 <Daan_>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melian_Dialogue
14:52 <Daan_>It is in book V of Thucydides.
14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wow
14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that we will cover then in full in a few months :-)
14:52 <Daan_>Socrates has a way of life and philosophy which is more like that of the general greeks and of Sparta.
14:53 <Daan_>The Greeks in general.
14:53 <Daan_>Pericles defends imperialism: we are good when we are rich. Our richness can be taken from the weak.
14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>way of life in practical terms: probably, though he had interesting deeds like walking barenaked feet
14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>dont dressing good
14:53 <Daan_>Yes.
14:53 <Daan_>How?
14:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>philosophy: well here I don't know
14:54 <Daan_>athens is warmer than Holland :_)
14:54 <Daan_>:-)
14:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think he was accused of being against existing Gods
14:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"Pericles defends Imperialism" is this in: II, 40 ?
14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think it is 41
14:58 <Daan_>39: "The Lacedaemonians come into Attica not by themselves, but with their whole confederacy following; we go alone into a neighbour's country; and although our opponents are fighting for their homes and we on a foreign soil, we have seldom any difficulty in overcoming them."
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well that just staes plainly that Lacedaimonians need many people to do great things
14:59 <Daan_>The Wikipedia article on Socrates says that he was in favour of might over right.
14:59 <Daan_>That is what Pericles says.
15:00 <Daan_>The Spartans marched with a large army, because every state in the confedracy had to give have 2/3 of their army in it.
15:00 <Daan_>The largeness of the army was in the disadvantage of Sparta.
15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"we have forced every sea and land to be the highway of our daring, and everywhere, whether for evil or for good, have left imperishable monuments behind us." http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_2 41
15:00 <Daan_>Yes, monuments of past might.
15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the largeness of an army was I think quite impressive for demoralizing Athenians
15:01 <Daan_>Perhaps it is better to just discuss the text for today and not Socrates ;-)
15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>seeing how many people are outside - ready to destroy everyting they have build up so far and ready to kill them if there is a chance
15:02 <Daan_>But the Athenians wanted to attack, Pericles kept them into the city.
15:02 <Daan_>They were not afraid.
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, depends
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they know how good the hoplite Army of the Lacadaimonians are
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the chances in a fight would be against Athenian army
15:02 <Daan_>That is right.
15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Archidamus tried to provoke them - e.g. by destroying fields of Acharnai
15:03 <Daan_>Pericles did send his army to sack Megara and the coast of the enemy.
15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, that could be seen as moralizing again
15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to show off what they have and what they are able to
15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but this was done after the Lacedaemonians left Attica
15:04 <Daan_>That is only at the start. Later on people get used to war, and know the strength of their enemy.
15:04 <pietrodn>The largeness of the army did not impress the Athenians. Persia had a huge army, but Athens won.
15:04 <Daan_>Than only real defeat counts, instead of the chance of being defeated.
15:05 <Daan_>That is right, Pietro.
15:05 <Daan_>Large armies don't have to be good in winning battles.
15:05 <pietrodn>hoplites are very strong
15:05 <Daan_>The most important thing is too be able to make the enemy flee the flied.
15:05 <pietrodn>it's a strong military structure
15:05 <Daan_>And than you can rout an entire army.
15:06 <Daan_>That was true for warfare untill 1850 something.
15:07 <Daan_>Pericles says that he wants to defend what their ancestors had build up.
15:07 <Daan_>People shouldn't hesitate dying in a war to defend your country.
15:08 <Daan_>Otherwise you are not worth the wealth that has been created.
15:08 <Daan_>By starting an empire.
15:08 <Daan_>Athens was the centre of the Athenian Empire with all its wealth.
15:09 <Daan_>So, the rich Athenians had to defend it by dying in battle.
15:09 <Daan_>So, their city state and families could be proud of them.
15:09 <Daan_>And celebrate them as heroes.
15:10 <Daan_>The Greeks supported Sparta because they didn't wanted to be the slaves of Athens.
15:10 <Daan_>The slaves in the foreign countries create the weath for the centre of the empire.
15:10 <Daan_>That is how many empires worked in the past.
15:11 <Daan_>Anyone wants to discuss this?
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what discuss ? :-)
15:11 <Daan_>That is true.
15:12 <Daan_>What do you want to discuss?
15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that people should die for their country is common believe back then probably
15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>proudness: of course
15:12 <Daan_>It still is for today.
15:12 <Daan_>Did you saw the interview with prince Harry of the UK a few days ago.
15:12 <Daan_>?
15:13 <Daan_>He fought in Afghanistan.
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably he got treated better than other soldiers because of his family :-)
15:13 <pietrodn>Daan_: can we discuss about the plague?
15:14 <pietrodn>Daan_: yes I saw it
15:14 <Daan_>Okay, lets discuss the plague.
15:14 <Daan_>No, he didn't. He wanted to be the same as the others.
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>everybody knows he is the prince so he will automatically treated different
15:15 <Daan_>That is right, i think.
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>except someone hating the Royal family ;-)

plague

15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, lets discuss the plague ?
15:15 <pietrodn>http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs267/en/
15:15 <Daan_>Soldiers fighting for Britain. Maybe there are some republicans.
15:16 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks
15:16 - Ramac quited (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:17 - Ramac joined
15:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Prevention
15:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>The objective of preventive measures is to inform people to be aware of the areas where zoonotic plague is active and to take precautions against flea bites and handling carcass while in plague-endemic areas. People should avoid having direct contact with infective tissues, or from being exposed to patients with pneumonic plague.
15:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>does this mean Pericles should have evacuated the Athenians from the city ? :-)
15:17 <Daan_>I think so.
15:18 <Daan_>He probably wanted to keep some wealth.
15:18 <pietrodn>The ancient Greeks didn't know how to fight plague
15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess most of the time at the begin of something like this: people try to stop rumors/info about something like a disease
15:18 <pietrodn>Pericles keps the Athenians into the city. 1/3 of the population died.
15:18 <Daan_>Yes, retardly conservative.
15:19 <Daan_>1/3 is a lot.
15:19 <Daan_>It was less severe than the Black Death, i think.
15:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I wonder when the disease spread, if people in AThens had worth of these ? Äthopien > Ägypten > Lybien > Persien > Athen > Piräus
15:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>worth=info
15:20 <Daan_>First Piraeus and than Athens.
15:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because Thukydides tells it, but he probably got the info afterwards ?
15:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true first Piraeus
15:20 <Daan_>He was there at the time.
15:20 <Daan_>He says about : i
15:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he says in II,48
15:21 <Daan_>"For I was myself attacked, and witnessed the sufferings of others.
15:21 <Daan_>And he survived.
15:22 <Daan_>He is very 'rational' in describing the dissease he suffered.
15:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>surviving with losing perhaps some extremities :-)
15:22 <Daan_>I wouldn't want to suffer the decending towards the privy parts.
15:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let's hope we won't get into such situation
15:23 <Daan_>descending
15:23 <Daan_>I want to have kids in the future.
15:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, he describes the diseases symptoms quite neutral
15:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>kids: you can also adopt
15:24 <Daan_>That is true.
15:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>neutral <-better: rational
15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because I think Thukydides is not so neutral in his listing of things in that part of the text - so rational aplies more
15:26 * Erkan_Yilmaz steps out for 2 mins
15:26 <Daan_>Okay.
15:26 <Daan_>Bye

ideas on this reading group

15:26 <Daan_>Pietro, what do you think about this reading group?
15:26 <Daan_>Perhaps it is too chaotic.
15:26 <Daan_>It is something new.
15:27 <pietrodn>yes, I haven't ever ried something like a reding grup
15:27 <pietrodn>*reading
15:27 <Daan_>Maybe more structure would be better.
15:27 <pietrodn>yes, i think so
15:27 <Daan_>Maybe, we should do some aditional tasks.
15:28 <pietrodn>e.g.?
15:28 <Daan_>Asking questions to the text, maybe?
15:28 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back
15:28 <Daan_>Hi Erkan.
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, where are we ?
15:30 <Daan_>I don't know.
15:31 <Daan_>I asked Pietro if there could be more structure into the reading group.
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from your topics we didn't talk yet about "* Athenian campaign along the shores of Greece."
15:31 <Daan_>That is right.
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the others we talked about shortly
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about structure: what ideas you have Daan ?
15:32 <Daan_>Perhaps that anyone who reads the text will also write something about it.
15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we are writing now :-)
15:32 <Daan_>an essay, or something, or some points for attention.
15:32 <Daan_>That is write.
15:33 <Daan_>That is also structure :-)
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we can use these chats for later also
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure how the people joining so far have extra time to do more ?
15:33 <Daan_>Yes.
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>for me I come mostly at some times with time to do this
15:33 <Daan_>How do you mean?
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and the 25 aphorisms to read is for me suitable
15:33 <Daan_>For me as well.
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which does not increase speed in all - but we have time anyways ?
15:34 <Daan_>Yes.
15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but what is very good: that you make the topics
15:34 <Daan_>It can also be seen as an exercise to read the text. And then the discussion is for repetition, or something.
15:34 <Daan_>Yes.
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what I do is: while reading I write a short text to the aphorism
15:35 <Daan_>This week, i had little thoughts about them. Except for the speech of Pericles.
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>this helps me when reading it on Saturdays for our meetings
15:35 <Daan_>On what?
15:35 <Daan_>What kind of short text?
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>a description what I just read
15:35 <Daan_>Oh, okay.
15:35 <Daan_>I saw that once.
15:35 <Daan_>I have learned at my study to make a relevant summary.
15:36 <Daan_>I studied history.
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you could say the descriptions are my summary
15:36 <Daan_>Yes.
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but they are not yet made public
15:36 <Daan_>You can post them on the Thucydees reading group page?
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I will make them public once - but I keep them in German
15:36 <Daan_>I can read German.
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I know
15:37 <Daan_>Otherwise you publish them on the German WV with a link to the English one.
15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>my idea was: in English there is much material to Thucydides, in German I am not sure
15:37 <Daan_>I think the Germans also have much literature.
15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but sometimes my description is not exactly what the text tells, I am cutting really to the extreme - what my interpretation of the text is
15:38 <Daan_>I had a course on the Soviet Union, and German scholarship was as prominent as the english one.
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I know that there are many books
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but I am not sure about online texts / summaries
15:38 <Daan_>It is better to read books from the libraries, otherwise that world could fade away.
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the History department in de.WP seems quite famous
15:38 <Daan_>Wikiversity could bring the world of books on the internet.
15:39 <Daan_>Is it?
15:39 <Daan_>On Wikipedia?
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I actually like reading texts on paper more than in digital
15:39 <Daan_>Me too.
15:39 <Daan_>I get a headache from reading from the screen.
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"Wikiversity could bring the world of books on the internet." <- that is actually a task of Wikisource
15:40 <Daan_>No, because you miss the intellectual debate.
15:40 <Daan_>The books already exist. We can get them, read them and discuss them.
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>this: yes
15:41 <Daan_>There are so incredibly large amount of books, that Wikibooks will never be able to copy them.
15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>lately I am also interested in Asian history literature
15:41 <Daan_>I read a paper on Shanghai.
15:41 <Daan_>That was quite interesting.
15:41 <Daan_>Shanghai as a treaty port 1842-1946, was the title of my paper.
15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, I want to go much more back in time
15:42 <Daan_>Especially the confrontation between China and Europe was interesting.
15:42 <Daan_>What kind of literature do you like?
15:42 <Daan_>Perhaps we can better go to wikiversity-en
15:42 <Daan_>Shall we close the Thucydides meeting?
15:43 <Daan_>And move to the english speaking wikiversity?
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we can talk there about that
15:43 <Daan_>Yes
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>closing the discussion ? what do the others say ?
15:44 <Daan_>little :-p
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac pietrodn myrmikonos mikeu
15:45 <Ramac>her i am :)
15:45 <pietrodn>Yes, we can quit here

next meeting

15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, when do you guys meet again ?
15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next Saturday at which time ?
15:45 <pietrodn>
15:30 UTC?
15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok for me
15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan Ramac myrmikonos ?
15:46 <Ramac>ok
15:47 - Ramac quited (Nick collision from services.)
15:47 <Daan_>I am ok as well.
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I will publish the log again
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>anybody against this ?
15:47 - Ramac joined
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac we will publish the log again, ok ?
15:48 <Ramac>ok
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn Daan myrmikonos mikeu - you agree ?
15:48 <pietrodn>Yes, I give my authorisation to publish this log :-)
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx pietrodn + Ramac
15:49 <Daan_>Me too :-p
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok then, the others we can kill from the logs :-)
15:50 * Erkan_Yilmaz is publishing
15:59 <mikeu>i didn't say anything, but I agree to logs
15:59 <mikeu>:)
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)