Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-01

This is the chat from our meeting on 1st March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: assassingr, Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, konstantinos

19:38 - Daan joined
19:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Daan
19:39 <Daan>Hi erkan
19:39 * Erkan_Yilmaz wonders where assassin is
19:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan you know konstantinos ?
19:40 <Daan>No.
19:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he is first time here, so we should make a good impression :-)
19:40 <Daan>Hi Konstantinos, i am Daan :-)
19:40 <konstantinos>hello
19:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi
19:41 <konstantinos>no need for good impression

19:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, we could also start until the others come by ?
19:44 <Daan>Today the main subject will be war.
19:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes - konstantinos you are there ?
19:45 <konstantinos>yes
19:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>should we start ?
19:45 <Daan>Last times, despite of the subject The Peloponnesian War, there were a lot of topics that were not about warfare.
19:45 <Daan>But, today it will be only about war.
19:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Daan you wanna post your topics again ?
19:46 <Daan>I will.
19:47 <Daan> * During the Spartan invasion of Attica, there is a conflict between commanders and followers. Followers are angry with the lack of initiative of the Commanders, Archidamus for Sparta and Pericles for Athens. Archidamus halted the advance in Attica, hoping for an Athenian surrender to the dismay of his army. Later on he advances into Attica, pillaging the most populated region, of which...
19:47 <Daan>Thucydides describes the first months of the war.
19:47 <Daan> * The peace was broken by the Boeotians, who tried to regain a Boeotian city, Plataea, which was allied with Athens. Plataea was an enthusiastic ally of Athens and defeated Boeotian (Theban) forces. We can discuss the breach of the oath, after which Theban prisoners of war were killed.
19:47 <Daan> * Most people in Greece were enthusiastic about the war and they supported Sparta, because Sparta was fighting for the freedom of the Greeks.
19:47 <Daan>...the inhabitants were now in Athens. Now Pericles is suffering from complaints of his followers. the athenians want to stop the sack of their lands and blame Pericles for not marching out to meet the enemy in battle.
19:47 <Daan> * Athens is not being besieged, because the Spartan army runs out of supply.
19:47 <Daan> * Athenians sack the Peloponnesian coast and take some Messenians on board of their ships.
19:47 <Daan> * Speeches of Archidamus and Pericles. Archidamus wants his men to be afraid, so they are prepared for battle. A small army could defeat a large army if the large army is not prepared. Pericles makes the Athenians feel confident by stating that athens is well prepared with a lot of money and a large army and navy.
19:47 <konstantinos>which one is most interesting
19:47 <Daan>Wat zeg je?
19:48 <konstantinos>according to your opinion?
19:48 <Daan>Well, i just made a summary.
19:48 * Erkan_Yilmaz is still reading
19:48 <Daan>But, i think there are some small sentences that could be interesting.
19:48 <Daan>But, now i am suffering of a hanover and can't make my mind up.
19:49 <Daan>And remember
19:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then lets start at the begin and see where we spend most of the time ?

Plataea

19:49 <Daan>Lets start with Plataea
19:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok
19:49 <Daan>The Greeks were pro-Sparta, but Plataea was pro-Athens.
19:50 <Daan>The Greeks wanted there own tiny states to be independent of Athens.
19:50 <Daan>But, Plataea was dependent of Boetia, Thebes.
19:50 <Daan>And, was allied to athens to be independent of the Boeotians.
19:50 <Daan>So, it says something about freedom.
19:50 <Daan>When are you free?
19:51 <konstantinos>actually they where subdued to Athens
19:51 <konstantinos>that means not free
19:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so they had to pay tributes and other means
19:52 <konstantinos>The big alliances were kept alive
19:52 <Daan>But, they didn't want to fight on the Spartan side.
19:52 <konstantinos>with taxes
19:52 <Daan>And become part of Boeotia.
19:52 <Daan>The Thebans wanted to liberate them, but they chose athens out of their own free will.
19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wasn't there the oath by the Greeks that they told plataea to be free forever and protect them from slavery ?
19:53 <konstantinos>Thebans I think were acting on Spartan side actually
19:53 <Daan>Yes, that is true.
19:53 <Daan>But, i don't know about what erkan said.
19:53 <konstantinos>that means
19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or do I mix the city ?
19:53 <Daan>Erkan, was the oath made by Athens?
19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>was it Marathon ?
19:54 <konstantinos>that they were endangering the city state
19:54 <konstantinos>builted
19:54 <Daan>I don't know.
19:54 <konstantinos>upon thw consensus of dempocratic way of living
19:54 <Daan>So, Plataea was democratic?
19:54 <konstantinos>no city in Greece
19:54 <konstantinos>was actually
19:55 <konstantinos>democratic
19:55 <konstantinos>according to this era model yes
19:55 <Daan>A bit democratic as opposed to oligarchy.
19:55 <konstantinos>yes
19:55 <Daan>But, Athens was democratic?
19:55 <konstantinos>no
19:56 <Daan>At least male citizens could vote.
19:56 <konstantinos>even for the standards of this era
19:56 <Daan>How did it work then?
19:56 <konstantinos>we know that for a population o 43.000 citizensxd
19:56 <konstantinos>3.000 were voting actually
19:57 <konstantinos>that means
19:57 <Daan>That is little indeed.
19:57 <konstantinos>that even for athenian standards
19:57 <Daan>Those who worked, couldn't vote?
19:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about the oath: in 479 king Pausanias made the Greeks swear the oath to protect Platea
19:57 <konstantinos>every decision
19:57 <Daan>Aha
19:57 <konstantinos>was not based upon immidiate democracy
19:57 <Daan>Erkan, i saw it on Wikipedia.
19:58 <Daan>But, Pausanias was Spartan, not athenian.
19:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but was it not against the Persians, when they all foght against them ?
19:58 <konstantinos>yes
19:58 <Daan>Ys, that is true.
19:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, Platea became on own will ally of Athens then ? or Athens forced them to join ?
19:59 <konstantinos>i am afraid this oath belongs to another context
19:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well then let's go back to what you just discussed
19:59 <konstantinos>there are two distinct periods of athenian hegemeny
19:59 <konstantinos>hegemony
19:59 <Daan>4th and 3rd century?
19:59 <konstantinos>first after the persian wars
20:00 <konstantinos>arhenians declared their will
20:00 <konstantinos>to protect cities states of greece
20:00 <konstantinos>the secopnd part is worst
20:00 <konstantinos>athenians are hegemones
20:00 <konstantinos>that means rulers
20:00 <Daan>Yes.
20:01 <konstantinos>and they use brutal force
20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so when Athens had more influence they became "corrupt" and misused their allies
20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>?
20:01 <konstantinos>yes
20:01 <Daan>And Plataea was first protected by the oath and later on ruled by Athens?
20:01 <konstantinos>absolutely
20:01 <konstantinos>Yes
20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well they should have build their city in another area :-)
20:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>right at the border is quite tasty for both sides
20:02 - assassingr joined
20:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi assassingr
20:02 <Daan>Well, there is a context. Many city states that ought to be protected became lazy, according to the Athenians, and needed to be disciplined. Forced to supply a navy and an army.
20:02 <Daan>Hi Assassingr!
20:02 <assassingr>hi guys
20:02 <konstantinos>τηατ ισ τηε ατηενιαν ποιντ οφ ωιες
20:03 <assassingr>:)
20:03 <konstantinos>thats the athenian point of view
20:03 <konstantinos>hi assassine
20:03 <Daan>I read the English translation.
20:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also: the cost for supplying ships and troops seemed higher and so they began to paying tributes instead and giving therefore more power (in military sense) to Athens
20:03 <Daan>I can't understand Greek.
20:03 * Erkan_Yilmaz doesnt know Greek also
20:04 <Daan>Shall we move on?
20:04 <konstantinos>yeap
20:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok

Messenians seem to support Athens

20:04 <Daan>The Messenians seem to support Athens.
20:04 <Daan>I think.
20:05 <konstantinos>that is natural
20:05 <Daan>Yes, they were slaves of Sparta.
20:05 <konstantinos>they have a heavy conflict with spartansw
20:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>werent they because of that settled some time to Naupactos by Athens ?
20:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what was the conflict ?
20:05 <Daan>They entered the Athenian ships, according to the text.
20:05 <Daan>Sparta had occupied Messenian lands for centuries.
20:06 <konstantinos>No Messenians were at times enslaved by spartans
20:06 <konstantinos>that means
20:06 <konstantinos>the pure reason
20:06 <konstantinos>was their independence
20:06 <Daan>They wanted to be freed.
20:06 <Daan>Okay.
20:07 <Daan>But, also independence within their own territory.
20:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting, normally Sparta made allies "just" change their government structure - how were they different than the helots ?
20:07 <Daan>Slaves can run away and live somewhere else.
20:07 <Daan>Weren't the Messenians Helots?
20:07 <konstantinos>they were perioikoi actually
20:07 <konstantinos>most of them
20:07 <Daan>What are perioikoi?
20:07 <konstantinos>people leaving around thew city
20:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periokoi
20:08 <konstantinos>but have no citizenship
20:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see
20:08 <konstantinos>they are obliged though to go to the war
20:08 <Daan>Just like in the Athenians Empire.
20:09 <Daan>The Messenians had nothing to lose.
20:09 <Daan>Either one master or the other.
20:09 <konstantinos>Yes
20:09 <Daan>But, the Athenians hadn't done anything wrong yet to them.
20:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably because they wanted allies in Peloponnesian territory ? :-)
20:10 <konstantinos>to messenians?
20:10 <Daan>Yes, or less wrong?
20:10 <Daan>Erkan, the Athenians surely wanted that.
20:10 <konstantinos>if you have a powerfull ally in the door step of your enemy

Persia as ally

20:11 <Daan>The text says that both Sparta and athens tried to get all the allies they could get. They both went to Persia.
20:11 <konstantinos>then you create suspicion
20:11 <konstantinos>that is true they went to persia
20:11 <konstantinos>their big mistaker
20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Persia didn't do much at begin of the Peloponnesian War or ?
20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I think the text says they wanted to send people to Persia
20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book II 7
20:12 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks
20:13 <konstantinos>Persia had every reason to keep Greece divided
20:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting the German and ENG text are different in this passage
20:13 <Daan>Yes. It is the typical policy of a major empire. The Chinese did the same in Mongolia and the Romans in germany.
20:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the ENG text says they resolved to do
20:14 <Daan>Strange.
20:14 <Daan>Well, Konstantinos can say which text is right.
20:14 <konstantinos>both came in contact with persia
20:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Chinese do this also in the normal business :-) the business chief has always a spy in the team - but nobody knows who the spy is
20:15 <Daan>Cool ;)
20:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true konstantinos can do this best
20:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Persia: divide and conquer
20:16 <konstantinos>that lokks like modern politics
20:16 <Daan>Modern politics? It is politics.
20:16 <konstantinos>especially for Balkan people
20:16 <konstantinos>anyway
20:17 <Daan>Yes, in holland there is more a liberal attitude of coresponsibility to create wealth together.
20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably because the air in holland makes people more relaxed than in other countries (or am I just biased now?)
20:18 <konstantinos>heh
20:18 <Daan>The air is polutted :)
20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) sorry when I insult someone now
20:18 <konstantinos>no mountains
20:18 <Daan>That is Dutch wealth :)
20:18 <konstantinos>perhaps you are right
20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah I see
20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I meant because of the drug shops and so
20:19 <Daan>Hardly anyone uses drugs in Holland.
20:19 <Daan>The strange thing about a liberal drug policy is that it reduces problems with drugs.
20:19 <konstantinos>thats good or bad?
20:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, you see what kind of prejudice there is
20:19 <Daan>Yes, of course it is good.
20:20 <Daan>But, lets discuss the text.
20:20 <konstantinos>I think the liberal model is the most succesfull
20:20 <Daan>What about the main military leaders Archidamus and Pericles.
20:20 <Daan>Yes, it is.
20:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, let's continue
20:20 <Daan>But it depends on your interest.
20:20 <Daan>It is best when you want a society where all people can live a decent live.
20:20 <Daan>life.
20:21 <konstantinos>every human being deserves that
20:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Sparta also had this moto: liberate Greece
20:21 <Daan>I agree.
20:21 <Daan>That is what i tried to make difficult.
20:21 <konstantinos>this was excuse I think
20:21 <Daan>Plataea and the Messenians are examples that this ideal wasn't right.
20:22 <Daan>I don't think so. I think the Spartans wanted peace.
20:22 <konstantinos>Of course
20:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure if this idea was so as it is in the times back then
20:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probabyl it was more like: the strong survives
20:22 <Daan>At least they were afraid of the Athenian power.
20:23 <Daan>But there is also an appeal to freedom.
20:23 <konstantinos>So why they were engeged to war?\
20:23 <Daan>Freedom means leaving people be, so you don't have to be strong.
20:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Spartans wanted peace: I guess they wanted that their foundation/structure does not get changed/interrupted too much
20:24 <konstantinos>engaged
20:24 <Daan>Yes, but the Corinthians had to convince the Greeks that taxes and warfare where only temporary.
20:24 <Daan>Otherwise they could have lost the vote.
20:24 <Daan>They wanted freedom and most Greeks as well.
20:24 <konstantinos>I Believe both wanted and end to this important question
20:24 <konstantinos>who is rulingt Greece?
20:24 <Daan>Or, at least that is what i get from this text.
20:24 <Daan>Several small states.
20:25 <Daan>There wasn't a ruler.
20:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well there are the two hegemons and their influence territory
20:25 <Daan>But, the Greeks were afraid of becoming slaves of Athens.
20:25 <konstantinos>Since Athenian Hegemony
20:25 <konstantinos>the ruler was on sight
20:25 <konstantinos>athenians slaughtered melians
20:25 <Daan>Also, the Spartan coalition army was too big.
20:25 <konstantinos>and corcyrians
20:26 <Daan>The athenians were much weaker and supply was difficyult.
20:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess most subdued cities from Athens did not want to pay tributes and thought Spartans would not take taxes or that kind - just in military times
20:26 <konstantinos>true
20:26 <Daan>It would have been better to march with a smaller better trained army with longer supply.
20:26 <konstantinos>also true
20:27 <Daan>Archidamus had the strange tactic to wait at the Athenian border in the hope to remain at peace.
20:27 <konstantinos>athenians were depended upon commerce
20:27 <Daan>Of course, Athens didn't want that.
20:27 <konstantinos>and archidamus presence
20:27 <konstantinos>weakened any commercial actions
20:27 <Daan>Well, they could have a smaller state and be free like the other Greeks. But then they could have lost independence to a new power.
20:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Archidamos just was outside the walls and the ships still could come to Piraeus the port to enable trade
20:28 <Daan>Yes, trade was still possible.
20:28 <Daan>In Holland we could also trade despite of wars.
20:28 <Daan>The only thing you need for trade is the sea and the river valleys, but Athens was not at the mouth of a river.
20:29 <Daan>Do either of you want to dicuss a theme regarding the text?
20:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens had its own port to get food and trade done
20:29 <Daan>discuss
20:29 <Daan>Yes.
20:30 <konstantinos>yes

military leaders: Archidamos + Pericles

20:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well we could go back to the military leaders again ?
20:30 <konstantinos>yes
20:30 <Daan>Yes.
20:30 <Daan>What would you want to say about them?
20:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>both were "friends" before
20:30 <konstantinos>different personalities
20:30 <Daan>Yes, that is true.
20:31 <Daan>They were still friends i think.
20:31 <Daan>It is a difficulty of war.
20:31 <konstantinos>Pericles is rather a politician
20:31 <Daan>He surely is.
20:31 <konstantinos>Archidamus is a military ruler
20:31 <Daan>Archidamus has more principles. But it doesn't make him a strong leader.
20:32 <konstantinos>depended from real political rulers
20:32 <konstantinos>Efors
20:32 <Daan>Oh, okay.
20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Archidamos - well he is one of the 2 kings leading to war and also he slowed down the battle
20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so if that is not being strong ?
20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>against the ephors he still had his will
20:32 <Daan>He had a god strategy to take out the belongings of the largest group of Athenians.
20:33 <Daan>Pericles could hardly hold his population.
20:33 <Daan>Psychological warfare.
20:33 <Daan>But it only works at the start of a war.
20:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles: he could hinder his people to make a battle, despite seeing lands destroyed - so he is also powerful
20:33 <Daan>Yes, i now know again what i wanted to discuss.
20:34 <Daan>Thucydides says about war that the young Greeks were enthusiastic, but didn't know yet what war was.
20:34 <Daan>War wears down a population especially when your loved ones are killed and your belongings destroyed.
20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but the young ones are probably deluded by the strong epics/tales ?
20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the raw models
20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the values of the socities back then
20:35 <Daan>I think it has to do with boredom.
20:36 <Daan>War is exiting at start. The boring life is gone and a new daring life begins.
20:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well weren't the (olympic) games e.g. made also for this reason to have something against boredom ?
20:36 <Daan>But it is only fun when you are not hurt yet.
20:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true
20:36 <Daan>A war is much more exciting.
20:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well because you can kill people ?
20:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>normally you get punished for that
20:37 <Daan>You can defeat a whole state and everybody is joined to defeat them. It isn't like all people just minding their own personal affairs and trying to enjoy themselves in leisure times as good as possible. The whole society changes.
20:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well it is more risky definitive
20:38 <Daan>For some psychopaths, destruction and killing can be something to look forward to.
20:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore more adrenaline pushing
20:38 <Daan>Yes.
20:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but in the end a battle or war is a team fighting against another
20:39 <Daan>But, i am glad there is no major war now at the moment.
20:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and 1 person from that team fights one or more from the other
20:40 <Daan>Yes, but it is not on one occasion like in the olympic Games. It is far larger and enduring.
20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is measuring your strength with other unknown strength
20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, I see the general enthusiasm, more focused on one all uniting goal
20:40 - konstantinos__ joined
20:40 <Daan>Strangely enough, people nearly always think that they are on the winning side.
20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi konstantinos__
20:40 <konstantinos__>So you consider Pericles to be a psycopath?
20:40 <Daan>Hi Konstantinos
20:40 <Daan>No
20:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>depends - I could consider all people psychopaths when not knowing much of them :-)
20:41 <Daan>I was taling about people who actually enjoy to kill themselves.
20:41 <Daan>Pericles was a state leader.
20:41 <Daan>He wanted to take responsibility for his state.
20:41 <konstantinos__>a crude ruler
20:41 <Daan>He seems like a cool pragmatic ruler.
20:41 <konstantinos__>actually
20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well most of the things about Pericles are also idealized perhaps since he was famous back then ?
20:42 <Daan>Very different fromArchidamus, who has a heart for the people.
20:42 <konstantinos__>Of course
20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who knows if he survived the plaque who knows
20:42 <Daan>I think most politicians are like Pericles.
20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Arhidamus: heart for the people means ?
20:42 <konstantinos__>pericles was manipulating democracy I think
20:42 <Daan>He stopped at the border in the hope it would bring peace.
20:43 <Daan>But it was something stupid, because it was impossible. But still he tried it.
20:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when seeing with actual political factions: Pericles wa smore moderate coalition ?
20:44 <Daan>I think Pericles wanted to keep Athens strong.
20:44 <Daan>He fought for Athens.
20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess Archidamos did it also because he knew the Peloponnese were not yet ready for war (besides having the land as worth value against the Athenians)
20:44 <Daan>The honour of Athens.
20:44 - konstantinos___ joined
20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles: yes keeping his Polis strong
20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>konstantinos you have connection probs ?
20:44 <Daan>Yes, strange is that he became the leader of the Spartan army, while he was a moderate voice in the Spartan state.
20:45 <konstantinos___>yes
20:45 <Daan>Hi Konstantinos. You keep coming :)
20:45 <konstantinos___>lol
20:45 <konstantinos___>i cant help it
20:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
20:45 <Daan>:)
20:45 <konstantinos___>sorry
20:45 <Daan>No, you may come 3 times more, no problem with that.
20:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but tell us before you leave haha
20:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so back to the topic ?
20:46 <Daan>Archidamos was an aristocrat and Pericles a carreer politician?
20:46 <Daan>Does that make the difference?
20:46 <Daan>Archidamos was born to be king, i mean.
20:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles also came from an old high respected family
20:47 <Daan>Well, a lot of kings are truly bad, but only little carreer politicans would be like Archidamos.
20:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>some also told his shape of face looked like an old tyrant (and snobish) - konstantinos you can tell something to that ?
20:47 <Daan>Yes, but there could have been other people in his position, while archidamos was born to be king.
20:48 <konstantinos___>for pericles you mean?
20:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes
20:48 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks a pic for Pericles
20:48 <konstantinos___>it is almost sure
20:48 <konstantinos___>according to Plutarchos
20:48 <konstantinos___>that he was a perfectionist
20:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the pics at Wikipedia look good
20:48 <konstantinos___>as it concerned hia
20:48 <konstantinos___>appearance
20:49 <konstantinos___>probably narcissist
20:49 <Daan>I will look as well.
20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pericles
20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess the helmet disguises his forefront
20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I read somewhere that he resembled an old tyrant
20:49 <konstantinos___>but i think he was using any means to
20:50 <konstantinos___>impress
20:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore also were some suspicions (also because of his family ties)
20:50 <Daan>Konstantinos, yes i think so.
20:51 <Daan>Pericles had made a lot of buildings, wasn't it.
20:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so helping the demos ?
20:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or just state buildings ?
20:51 <Daan>I don't know.
20:51 <Daan>I don't see it in the Wikipedia article.
20:51 <konstantinos___>he gave much money
20:51 <konstantinos___>for public buildings
20:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah that I remember he had people around him who distributed money
20:52 <Daan>Okay.
20:52 <konstantinos___>athena had to make an impressions
20:52 <konstantinos___>to the alliance
20:52 <Daan>Yes, of course :)
20:52 <konstantinos___>so every time abassadors
20:52 <konstantinos___>were coming in Athens
20:53 <konstantinos___>were forced to get dressed
20:53 <konstantinos___>with different clothes
20:53 <konstantinos___>and also forced to watch Dionysia
20:53 <Daan>I am going to eat a fruit. So i will respond a bit slower.
20:53 <konstantinos___>under Acropolis etcx etc
20:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or you could say he wanted to keep flourishing the clothing and entertainment industry :-)
20:53 <konstantinos___>lol
20:54 <konstantinos___>thats pov
20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>good appetite Daan
20:54 <Daan>Thanks
20:54 <konstantinos___>from me too
20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so we are just making bad words about dead man :-)
20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they can't defend themselves
20:55 <Daan>He is dead for 2500 years now. He must be happy we are still talking about him.
20:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>good point
20:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps he is watching me while I type ?
20:55 <konstantinos___>yeap
20:56 <Daan>He will take revenge while you sleep ;)
20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, where were we now before our journey to the dead world
20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he can try
20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>characteristics of the two leaders

no multimedia about King Archidamos ?

20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we have a pic of Archidmos ?
20:56 - konstantinos quited (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:57 <Daan>Last time we also discussed about them.
20:57 <konstantinos___>not many sources
20:57 <konstantinos___>to justify any clue
20:57 <Daan>That is true.
20:57 <konstantinos___>for pericles
20:57 <konstantinos___>we have
20:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, WP or commons does not have pics about Archidamos :-(
20:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there is one pic for the later Archidamos the 3rd
20:58 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back in a min
20:58 <Daan>Perhaps on Google?
20:59 <konstantinos___>you mean real picture?
21:00 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back
21:00 <Daan>Yes, i want a movie of him made with a mobile phone and placed on YouTube.
21:00 <Daan>:)
21:01 <Daan>#me is still here
21:01 * Daan is still here
21:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan thy wish is granted
21:01 <Daan>Youpie!
21:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>... if I would be a witch
21:01 <Daan>Than?
21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then thy wish is granted
21:02 <Daan>A fariy if better :)
21:02 <Daan>fairy
21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but it is interesting Archidamus was a leading figure but not a pic - is this due to Sparta's cultural system ?
21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but from Archidamus III there are pics
21:02 - konstantinos__ quited (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yep, fairy it should have been
21:02 <konstantinos___>well my friends
21:02 <konstantinos___>i have to leave yopu
21:02 <Daan>Oh no, only one Konstantinos left :(

literature about Peloponnesian War

21:03 <konstantinos___>http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft767nb497/
21:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah why ?
21:03 <Daan>bye Konstantinos
21:03 <konstantinos___>this is a book
21:03 <konstantinos___>very good one
21:03 <konstantinos___>about athenian hegemony and political realism
21:04 <Daan>It sounds pretty good indeed.
21:04 <Daan>Very postmodern, i suppose.
21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I wanted to say before you leave: good you were here, since you helped us with not being two persons only and also giving more details as a Greek knowing issues more better
21:04 <konstantinos___>thanks
21:04 <Daan>Yes, i liked it as well with you.
21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>will we see you again ? and you agree to make the chat public ?
21:04 <konstantinos___>too many people not good conversation
21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we will remove non-topic issues
21:05 <Daan>That is true.
21:05 <konstantinos___>and this was a good conversation
21:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes
21:05 <Daan>We had some chat sessions which were very busy.
21:05 <konstantinos___>thank you
21:05 <konstantinos___>byez
21:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye konstantinos___
21:05 <Daan>Bye!
21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan shoudl we continue ?
21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>lets do
21:06 <Daan>Okay.
21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which topics didn't we cover yet ?

military strategy

21:08 <Daan>Perhaps military strategy.
21:08 <Daan>How would we lead an army in those days.
21:08 <Daan>Suppose you are Sparta or Athens.
21:08 <Daan>There is the problem of supply.
21:09 <Daan>Of allies.
21:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean with the ressources form that time ?
21:09 <Daan>Where will you move your army?
21:09 <Daan>Yes.
21:09 <Daan>A lot in the text of today is about where armies and fleets move to and what actions they take and problems that occur.

22:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so last question: how would we lead an army in those days ?
22:05 <Daan>Yes.
22:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>supply: either take with you (or send after the troops) or get from enemy country
22:06 <Daan>Perhaps we have too limited information to answer that question.
22:06 <Daan>The last thing is tricky.
22:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, when they destroy it
22:06 <Daan>Athens could put all supply behind the walls.
22:06 <Daan>And tan you have to leave soon.
22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, if nobody attacks Sparta outside they don't have probs with supply - though they have other probs to not stay long there
22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>helot uprising, allies wanting to farm their land, see their families
22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>winter coming
22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>demotivation to stare at walls
22:08 <Daan>Superb training of the Spartan army would easily defeat the Helots.
22:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the Spartans are from just seeing numberes outnumbered pretty bad
22:08 <Daan>The last thing could be tricky indeed, especially when a famine occurs.
22:09 <Daan>Britain defeated 40.000 Bengals in the battle of Plassey with only 1800 men.
22:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Archidamos told the war against AThens is decided by money
22:09 <Daan>And less than hundred of them were actually British.
22:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have a good fighting position ?
22:09 <Daan>Yes, money to buy supplies, i suppose.
22:09 <Daan>Lets see.
22:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, because Athens needs food to get into the city by the sea port
22:10 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plassey
22:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also paying the soldiers
22:10 <Daan>Food is no problem for Athens. They have a large commercial port.
22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if the port gets blocked or destroyed
22:11 <Daan>And they earn enough money, had a large treasury.
22:11 <Daan>Yes, than Athens is done with quickly.
22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because I doubt Sparta can hold against them in the naval department
22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also Aigina was a chance to capture at begin of war
22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which could have an influence on ships passing by to to Piraeus
22:11 <Daan>Aegina has the problem of being an island.
22:12 <Daan>Yes.
22:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but the chance passed when Athens then won against the attacking intruders there
22:13 <Daan>Where, in Piraeus?
22:13 <Daan>Later in the war?
22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think yes, not yet in book II, 1-25
22:14 <Daan>Ah, okay.
22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Brasidas and others had the plan
22:14 <Daan>Brasidas is Spartan?
22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes
22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if they acted swiftly they even perhaps could have intruded into Piraeus
22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and who knows what could be done there
22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but chance passed
22:15 <Daan>Yes.
22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, about leading troops:
22:15 <Daan>I don't know the story.
22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens went with 100 ships to the Peloponnese
22:15 <Daan>Yes, piracy.
22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to Methone and Pheia
22:16 <Daan>Methone was Spartan territory, but they were pro-Spartan other than the Messenians, wasn't it?
22:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they just attacked and when too much opposition came they retreated
22:16 <Daan>Perhaps they didn't want to be attacked and looted.
22:16 <Daan>Yes.
22:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Methone: I would say so, otherwise they would have not hold out against them until Brasidas came
22:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at least I don't know of anything from Thucydides text
22:17 <Daan>me neither.
22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Athens seems like guerilla tactics
22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>attack and retreat
22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>less lossess hopefully and distract the enemy from Attica
22:18 <Daan>Yes.
22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>showing them that with thwir ships they are faster and more agile
22:18 <Daan>Make them angry just like what Archidamos did in Attica.
22:18 <Daan>Also, bcause they couldn't do anything else.
22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and perhaps even feeding the enemies of Sparta with hope
22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>helots, Argos
22:19 <Daan>Otherwise Athens would do nothing.
22:19 <Daan>Yes.
22:19 <Daan>And showing to the Athenian population that everything was going fine.
22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah doing something for the morale, propaganda
22:20 <Daan>In Macedon, Athens was much stronger.
22:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean with the side switching Perdiccas ? :-)
22:20 <Daan>The Athenian army easily conquered the capital of Macedon.
22:20 <Daan>Yes.
22:20 <Daan>But in the Peloponnese, Athens attacked only small towns.
22:20 <Daan>Probably, because they were to weak.
22:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from the Methone and Pheia both are on the west coast - perhaps they just wanted the Peloponnesian army to move the most far away
22:21 <Daan>There is a bottleneck situation. Sparta is too weak at sea and Athens on land. So, they can't defeat eachother.
22:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup
22:21 <Daan>Yes.
22:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps Corinth could do something with their ships, but the time will show that Peloponnesian navy is just too inexperienced
22:22 <Daan>So, that is why the war dragged on for so long.
22:22 <Daan>Yes.
22:22 <Daan>Ever heard of the longest siege in history?
22:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nope, which it is ?
22:22 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Candia
22:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>21 years - not bad
22:23 <Daan>Tukrey versus Venice on Crete. It took 21 years for the Turks to conquer the city.
22:23 <Daan>Yes.
22:23 <Daan>And with artillery.
22:24 <Daan>Siege techniques were pretty advanced in those days.
22:24 <Daan>The turks literally shot there way into the town.
22:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
22:24 <Daan>21 years of shooting.
22:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>brutal force
22:24 <Daan>In the time of Sparta and Athens, they used basillicas, i suppose.
22:25 <Daan>Not so good as artillery.
22:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have artillery back then ?
22:25 <Daan>Cannon, i mean.
22:25 <Daan>Yes, bassilica is artillery, i suppose.
22:25 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks
22:26 <Daan>It isn't the right word.
22:27 <Daan>I meant ballista
22:27 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista
22:27 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_engine
22:27 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks
22:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see - fast way to get into the city
22:28 <Daan>Yes.
22:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if only landing would be softer
22:28 <Daan>So, the walls of Athens were very large and thick.
22:29 <Daan>Otherwise, Archidamos could have entered quickly.
22:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am just thinking if they could have good parachutes :-)
22:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>flying humans
22:29 <Daan>A ballista can be used for that.
22:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I read somewhere someone put chickens with fire burning roped and threw them like this into the city and the animals in panic went everyhwere
22:30 <Daan>Throwing a human high up in the air and than you release your parachute :)
22:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or poisons in waterform which hits the enemy
22:31 <Daan>If there was a plague, the army with the plague would use deceased bodies and trow them into the city.
22:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nice idea :-) but don't tell the families of the body
22:31 <Daan>That is how Black Death entered Europe in 1346.
22:31 <Daan>And in the Middle East.
22:31 <Daan>That is true.
22:32 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death
22:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hm another idea to throw fecals into the city to also spread nice bacterias
22:33 <Daan>"It was reportedly first introduced to Europe at the trading city of Caffa in the Crimea in 1347. After a protracted siege, during which the Mongol army under Janibeg was suffering the disease, they catapulted the infected corpses over the city walls to infect the inhabitants. The Genoese traders fled, bringing the plague by ship into Sicily and the south of Europe, whence it spread."
22:33 <Daan>Yes, and yikes!
22:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in kind of military ideas, Humans are just inventive
22:34 <Daan>Yes, very.
22:34 <Daan>Luckily also in non-military ideas.
22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes

next meeting

22:35 <Daan>I am getting tired.
22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah ok - so we stop then
22:35 <Daan>Shall we continue next week?
22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>of course
22:35 <Daan>Okay.
22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next 25 aphorisms
22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>time ?
22:35 <Daan>Yep.
22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we should ask again konstantin how he has time
22:36 <Daan>Best on next saturday.
22:36 <Daan>Yes.
22:36 <Daan>And i have less time in the evening, because i will go out at night.
22:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so lets do it then earlier
22:36 <Daan>cya
22:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye