Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-February-9

This is the chat from our meeting on 9th February 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: assassingr|away, Daan, dcrochet, Erkan Yilmaz, myrmikonos, pietrodn, Ramac, Sundance_Raphael

Sicily

non-topic lines deleted

13:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>lets call the others to join us: pietrodn myrmikonos dcrochet - let's start

non-topic lines deleted

13:27 <dcrochet>hum, i'm not goe to participate e lot, because i know nothing about the peloponnesian war
13:27 <assassingr|away>I'm a little slow on the uptake right now, very sleepy
13:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, indeed in Sicily Greek states had colonies
13:28 <Daan>Okay.
13:28 <dcrochet>* not go to
13:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably pietrodn can tell us one time more about this things in Sicily ? Did you have this in school ?
13:29 <pietrodn>Yes, we studied this period
13:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great
13:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so who has read the text for today ? Some were invited without reading, so we can give them a short update ?
13:29 <pietrodn>The war between Syracuse and Segesta
13:30 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up Segesta
13:30 <Daan>Was Segesta Greek or Carthaginian?
13:30 <pietrodn>Segesta was greek
13:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segesta
13:31 <Daan>A local Carthaginian ally.
13:31 <Daan>I read something about the local nations on Sicily before the Greek and the fenicians came, but it is way off topic.
13:32 <Daan>I only read about it on Wikipedia.
13:32 <pietrodn>We should also talk about Alcibiades and the scandal
13:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>here is a map it is in the northwestern part of Sicily: http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=37.941306&lon=12.83764&z=7&l=5&m=a
13:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>above this green E90
13:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Syracuse is in the east coast
13:33 <Daan>Segesta was from the Elamyians who came from Anatolia.
13:33 <pietrodn>Syracuse was friend of Sparta, am I right?
13:33 <Daan>They lived in the west of Sicily.
13:33 <Daan>I think so, that is why Athens went to Sicily.
13:33 <Daan>Isn't it?
13:34 <Daan>Elymians.
13:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"Syracuse was founded in 734 or 733 BC by Greek settlers from Corinth and Tenea, led by the oecist (colonizer) "
13:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"In the late 5th century BC, Syracuse found itself at war with Athens, which sought more resources to fight the Peloponnesian War."
13:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse%2C_Sicily
13:34 <Daan>So, they were loyal corinthians, supporting the Pelopennese
13:34 <pietrodn>The Magna Graecia colonies was formed due to the second colonisation
13:35 <Daan>The first colonization was the conquest of Greece by the greek?
13:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well this brings us to the Thucydides text a little bit with Corcyra and Epidamnos
13:35 <pietrodn>no... it was the conquest of the west coast of Anatolia by Greeks
13:35 <Daan>Oh, okay.
13:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corcyra being on the strategic position to the Greek-Sicily sea way

origins of Greeks, the first and the second colonization, the Doric invasion...

13:36 <Daan>But the Greeks only lift for a few centuries in Greece, before them there were other people living there, in the 2nd millenium BC.
13:36 <myrmikonos>hi everybody :P
13:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi myrmikonos
13:36 <Daan>The Greek are Indo-Europeans marching south from Hungary.
13:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how was lunch ?
13:37 <Daan>Hi Myrmikonos.
13:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps assassingr|away knows about the roots of Greek people ?
13:37 <myrmikonos>[ delicious ]
13:37 <pietrodn>Daan: there was the Doric invasion, in the XIII century
13:37 <Daan>I'm getting hungry as well.
13:37 <assassingr|away>Hm, I know that the roots of Greeks was a tribe called Danaoi
13:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - great, so you have now energy for us ?
13:37 <pietrodn>Spartans have Doric origins
13:37 <Daan>Yes, was that the invasion to Ionia?
13:37 <assassingr|away>(not sure how it is in English...)
13:38 <pietrodn>Daan: Ionia is in Anatolia
13:38 <Daan>Yes, i know. It is now Turkish.
13:38 <assassingr|away>pietrodn: Spartans have Doric origins, that's true, I recall it
13:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta: yes Dorian
13:38 <pietrodn>Daan: The Dorics went in Greece, so the former inhabitants moved to Anatolia
13:38 <Daan>and the Ionians were the first Greeks to enter Greece.
13:38 <pietrodn>Daan: this is the first colonization
13:38 <Daan>Okay.
13:39 <Daan>Shall we talk about the text.
13:39 <myrmikonos> [Danaoi is a keyword for me and google ]
13:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yippie :-)
13:39 <pietrodn>In the ancient Sparta, Ilots was the former inhabitants, submitted by Dorics
13:39 <pietrodn>*were
13:39 <Daan>I will look for the Danaoi on Wikipedia.
13:40 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaoi
13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>The Danuna are known from Egyptian, Hittite, and classical sources. In the historical sources, the Danuna are known by many different names such as Denyen, Danunites, Danaoi, Danaus, Danaids, Dene, Danai, Danaian.
13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>There are several theories on where the Danuna came from:
13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>1) Eastern Cilicia, 2) Mycenae, 3) Canaan.
13:40 <pietrodn>In the Iliad there is the word "Danaoi", many times
13:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from: http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/danaoi
13:41 - dcrochet left
13:41 <Daan>I have read somewhere they weren't really Greek.
13:41 <pietrodn>Daan: The entire world is a melting pot...
13:41 <Daan>That is true Pietro.
13:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we are all brothers and sisters :-)
13:42 <Daan>Before the ice age all Europeans and inhabitants of the Middle East probably lived in the Middle East.
13:42 <pietrodn>A lot of indoeuropean people went in Greece in 2 invasions (in about 2000 and 1200 a.C.)
13:42 <assassingr|away>Daan: That time they didn't think of themselves as Greeks, only after a *long* time and after many processes
13:43 <Daan>Yes, of course.
13:43 <myrmikonos>*notice "The entire world is a melting pot"*
13:43 <Daan>Several groups coming together.
13:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>didn't Thucydides tell in his book, when they began to call them Greeks ?
13:43 <pietrodn>They defined themselves "Ellenics"
13:43 <Daan>I am probably not germanic but half Celtic and Germanic.
13:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah yes, Hellens it was
13:44 <pietrodn>uh, Hellens
13:44 <pietrodn>In Italian the word is "Elleni" :-D
13:44 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up where it was again
13:44 <myrmikonos>i wish to be myrmidonian :o
13:44 <Daan>What is that?
13:44 <Daan>In Dutch helleens.
13:44 <pietrodn>Daan: Achilles was Myrmidonian
13:45 <myrmikonos>some kind of mystic soldier tribe , wich follows achillies
13:45 <pietrodn>They came from Ftia
13:45 <Daan>I got a Frisian family ame.
13:45 <pietrodn>(Phthia?)
13:45 <Daan>name
13:45 <myrmikonos>achilles was just the leader x)
13:45 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthia
13:45 <Daan>They had the Frisian freedom in the middle ages.
13:45 <Daan>Which meant being against the nobility.
13:46 <pietrodn>«Phthia (Greek: Φθία or Φθίη; transliterations: Fthii (modern), Phthíē (ancient)) is an ancient region of Greece, at the area of Phthiotis Prefecture, on the both sides of Othrys mountain. It was the homeland of the Myrmidones tribe, who took part in the Trojan War under Achilles.»
13:46 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons
13:46 <myrmikonos>there exist a german source of herodots story @ internet
13:46 <myrmikonos>its a huge pdf
13:46 <Daan>Yes.
13:46 <Daan>You mean written in German?
13:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book I, 3 talks about the usage of Greeks for themselves as Hellens
13:47 <Daan>I will read it now.
13:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - you seem to know Greek history
13:47 * assassingr|away wonders if Hellen and Helen have a relationshio
13:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
13:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Helen of Troy ?
13:48 <myrmikonos>[ http://www.gasl.org/refbib/Herodotos__Geschichten.pdf ]
13:48 <assassingr|away>Well, any Helen
13:48 <assassingr|away>Of course the famous one was that of Troy
13:48 <Daan>Wow, what a great story. I had forgotten all about it.
13:48 <Daan>Sometimes when you read too fast, you miss the juicy details.
13:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah I see: Achilles and his people were the first Hellens
13:49 <pietrodn>assassingr|away: every name has its origin. I'm searching now...
13:49 <Daan>No, Homer wrote about them, that is what Thucydides says.
13:49 <Daan>He doesn't believe in fairy tales.
13:49 <pietrodn>Helen - From Ancient Greek Ἑλένη (Helénē), possibly connected with ἥλιος (hḗlios) ‘sun’.
13:50 <pietrodn>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Helen
13:50 <Daan>I guess he gives a good impression of how a nation starts.
13:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw for all others who do not have the text: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1
13:50 <Daan>The French are funny, they are named after their Germanic conquerers, while they are actually romanic.
13:51 <myrmikonos>so much to read ;)
13:51 <assassingr|away>I see... Too many words and you can't always now which are connected with another
13:51 <Daan>Yes.
13:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - no worries, therefore others are here to summarize
13:51 <myrmikonos>i need more reading time
13:51 <myrmikonos>ok
13:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as you see we do not specifically talk about the text fornow
13:52 <myrmikonos>[
13:49] <Daan> Sometimes when you read too fast, you miss the juicy details. <- word
13:52 <Daan>That is true.
13:52 <Daan>Well, te juicy details can be given.

Perdiccas, Alcibiades

13:53 <Daan>What about the conduct of the Macedonian king: first he tries to start a war, which is succesfull, and than he flips sides thrice in the war.
13:53 <Daan>That is Realpolitik :-)
13:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha
13:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean Perdiccas ?
13:54 <Daan>Yes, i am a big fan of him now.
13:54 <Daan>There are so many morons in world history.
13:55 <Daan>Though, he probably had a good reason.
13:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdiccas_II_of_Macedon
13:55 <Daan>he thought.
13:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well unfortunately we don't know so much about his reasonings besides Thucydides' text :-(
13:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but it is really fascinating how he switches sides
13:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess a reader of Thucydides' text might think: heh, am I reading correct ?
13:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
13:56 <Daan>Perhaps war was a mean to keep Macedonia together.
13:56 <Daan>The Wikipedia article says that Macedonia was falling apart.
13:56 <pietrodn>Alcibiades also switched side...
13:56 <pietrodn>three times :-D
13:57 <Daan>If you invite foreign troops to destroy your own country, maybe your population is prepared to follow you as a strong man.
13:57 <Daan>Wow
13:57 <pietrodn>Athens, Sparta, Athens - then he was killed
13:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Alcibiades - what was his importance again ?
13:57 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up Alcibiades
13:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades
13:58 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: he was the leader of the Sicilian expedition
13:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"He played a major role in the second half of that conflict as a strategic advisor, military commander, and politician."
13:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah the expedition which failed ?
13:58 <Daan>That is a famous one.
13:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"The Sicilian Expedition was Alcibiades' creation, and modern scholars have argued that, had that expedition been under Alcibiades' command instead of Nicias', the expedition might not have met its eventual disastrous fate."
13:59 <pietrodn>One night during preparations for the expedition, the hermai, heads of the god Hermes on a plinth with a phallus, were mutilated throughout Athens. This was a religious scandal and was seen as a bad omen for the mission. Plutarch explains that Androcles, a political leader, used false witnesses who accused Alcibiades and his friends of mutilating the statues, and of profaning the Eleusinian Mysteries.
13:59 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades#Sicilian_Expedition
14:00 <pietrodn>So he switched to Sparta
14:00 <pietrodn>and gave to Sparta some useful information...
14:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
14:00 <pietrodn>and - whooops - Sparta won
14:00 <pietrodn>Uh, he went to Persia, also...
14:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, a lesson in history then for others too to learn
14:01 <Daan>That was in the text: A Spartan old guy said, Sparta is a land power, so we have a disadvatage to the people of the sea (Athens). Our advatage is that we can slowly use diplomacy in our advantage.
14:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>That was Archidamos, King of Sparta
14:02 <Daan>So, Sparta made deals with everybody who was anti-Athens.
14:02 <pietrodn>Yes, also with Persia
14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess every state did this - using advantage wherever possible, only it is not known
14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably states today will do so
14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but under secrecy :-)
14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean not anti-Athens :-)
14:03 <Daan>Yes, but there are always different thoughts within a state of what should be done.
14:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hm I guess in the end survival of the state is important thing
14:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine CIA and others deal with information
14:04 <Daan>Yes, that is true. But there are states which dissolved out of free will.
14:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is like in chess, that one wins who has the most possibilities still and info gives you an advantage
14:04 <Daan>The county of Holland in 1425 voluntarily became dependent to Burgundy, for instance.
14:04 <Daan>To be stronger.
14:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, interesting
14:05 <Daan>Yes, advantages in power.
14:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I don't know the context of this
14:05 <pietrodn>Alcibiades then helped Thetes in a rebellion against the Thirty Tyrannies
14:05 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetes
14:06 <Daan>Erkan, the nobility had killed itself in a civil war and the cities decided to choose for the duke of Brugundy, who was also count of Flanders. Flanders was the centre of Northern European trade.
14:07 <Daan>Who were the Thirty Tyrannies?
14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>guys, what do you think on this ? we are jumping in history, probably to be effective to read all, we need more time - so how about sticking to one thing e.g. the text ? Then perhaps others can also join us in the meeting ? But definitely we can use the links for another session ?
14:08 <Daan>Okay.

Was Thucydides right that the Spartans were afraid of Athens?

14:08 <Daan>Question about the text: Was Thucydides right that the Spartans were afraid of Athens?
14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah you mean the reasons which started the war :-)
14:08 <Daan>A text can never be completely trusted, but you shouldn't trust your own judgment as well.
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book I, 88
14:09 <Daan>Yes.
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, lets see who wanted war from inside Sparta, perhaps we can understand then ?
14:09 <Daan>Nice point: Athenians claim they had to have an empire to stop Persia, but Sparta even allied with Persia versus Athens.
14:09 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants
14:10 <myrmikonos>its allways disgusting to get in war with the spartans ;)
14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Thcydides told, Sparta was the most convenient people to fight :-)
14:10 <Daan>So, you are pro-Athens, myrmikonos :-)
14:11 <myrmikonos>ahhh, i mean in the view of an enemy
14:11 <pietrodn>Sparta was scared... Athens became very powerful
14:11 <myrmikonos>i am pro greek so far x)
14:11 <Daan>Okay.
14:11 * myrmikonos is laughing
14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess Sparta was afraid of Athens power growth
14:12 <pietrodn>yes
14:12 <Daan>Greece wasn't exactly a unity bakc than
14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also was under infuence by its partners like Corinth
14:12 - Ramac joined
14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when Athens gained power in sea, Corinth lost
14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Ramac
14:12 <Daan>Yes, they had to help them.
14:12 <Daan>Otherwise they would be alone.
14:12 <Ramac>hi Erkan_Yilmaz , pietrodn :)
14:13 <Daan>Hi Ramac
14:13 <pietrodn>Hi Ramac!
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>welcome in the channel Ramac
14:13 <Ramac>:)
14:13 <Daan>Lot of people this time.
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>really and that is great
14:13 <Daan>Me and Erkan had some discussions with only the two of us.
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you specifically joined because of our meeting today Ramac ?
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah the old times :-)
14:13 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I told him of the meeting :-)
14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn is raising in Erkan's popularity :-)
14:14 <Daan>Ah, great.

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14:14 <pietrodn>:-D
14:14 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: pietrodn says me that she was here
14:14 <Daan>She?
14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you know about the Peloponnesian War already Ramac ?
14:14 <pietrodn>she?
14:14 <Ramac>yes
14:14 <Daan>The she-woman?
14:14 <Ramac>i studied last year at school
14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha, what a small misytpe can have an effect :-)
14:15 * Erkan_Yilmaz opens the door wide for Ramac
14:15 <Daan>Oh he ;-)
14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac have a seat on the couch and talk discuss with us ok ?
14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you want some tea ?
14:15 * Erkan_Yilmaz serves some tea
14:15 <Daan>ah ah ah
14:15 <pietrodn>:-D
14:16 * Erkan_Yilmaz serves also Daan pietrodn assassingr|away myrmikonos
14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next round is on you
14:16 <assassingr|away>:)
14:16 <pietrodn>virtual tea :-P
14:16 <myrmikonos>thaaanx
14:16 <Daan>You got me thirsty, now i am thinking about pancakes and candies, and applepie.
14:16 * Ramac mmh.... tea.. :D
14:16 <Ramac>XD
14:16 <Daan>All because of you, Erkan:-)
14:16 <pietrodn>Daan: aaargh! I'm becoming hungry! :-P
14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well we need some energy for the talks so it is a good idea
14:17 * myrmikonos is plopping some sugar-cubes into his cup
14:17 <myrmikonos>well , the lambda power is still in the tea !
14:17 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back in a min, so could someone summarize for Ramac what we did ?
14:17 <Ramac>thank!
14:17 <pietrodn>Ramac: abbiamo parlato di dopo la pace di Callia
14:18 <myrmikonos>:o
14:18 <pietrodn>myrmikonos: I'm speaking in Italian :-D
14:18 <pietrodn>Ramac: poi Alcibiade fa il voltafaccia
14:18 <Daan>We discussed the wonderfull diplomacy of king Perdiccas II of Macedon and the reason for Sparta to start a war with Athens.
14:18 <Ramac>eheheh.... i can't remember it very well....
14:18 <myrmikonos>mi kiamo alex :v thats all
14:19 <pietrodn>Ramac; then we said that Sparta was afraid of Athens
14:19 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back
14:20 <Daan>Hi Erkan!
14:20 <pietrodn>we also talked about the origins of Greeks, the first and the second colonization, the Doric invasion...
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about Sparta and fear - I always find this very amusing
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because in my mind Sparta is always the strong heroes and associating some attribute like fear to them makes me smile :-)
14:20 <Daan>I think Thucydides as well.
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it is some other kind of fear than the fear in fighting
14:21 <Daan>A sense of humour can be hidden very deep.
14:21 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: they were a very militaristic polis
14:21 <Daan>The fear of being destroyed.
14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean some kind of power thinking ?
14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that being in a power position makes you act like you act ?
14:22 <Daan>Perhaps the Spartans were more concerned with keeping honour and tradition.
14:22 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: my teacher said that the political organization of Sparta was similar to communism, in some parts
14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - yes, the image of Sparta is everywhere, e.g. the movie 300 - though the historicity there can not be correct .-)
14:22 <Daan>With war communism at least.
14:22 <pietrodn>The presence of the state in Sparta was very strong
14:22 <Daan>It's a pity that Sunny can't tell us the Spartans are bourgeois.
14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>why was the presence so strong ? because of the consitution ?
14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan :-)
14:23 <pietrodn>The children were educated by the polis, in Athens they were educated by their families e.g.
14:23 <myrmikonos>the battle of the thermophyles against Xerxes was very impressive ..
14:23 * Ramac take his notes....
14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_of_Sparta
14:24 <Daan>myrmikos, yes it was.
14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos - yes very good scenes
14:24 <myrmikonos>some 30000 spartans versus 1 million persians?
14:24 <pietrodn>Lycurgus was a mythical legislator
14:24 <myrmikonos>lycurgus [ lykanthrophil? :D ]
14:25 <pietrodn>myrmikonos: Leonidas was very brave
14:25 <Daan>I like the words in the text about dscipline: The Athenians disciplined those who didn't want to fight. And the Spartans want to keep there discipline in the fight versus Athens.
14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>where is this from ?
14:26 <Daan>I will look it up.
14:26 <pietrodn>Sparta had the agoge educational system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoge
14:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn what was it again with the similarity of war communism ? could you elaborate more on this please ?
14:26 <myrmikonos>[ ah leonidas.. i remember]
14:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the strong Leonidas
14:26 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: the education is entirely handled by the state
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, ok
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well this was good and bad in two ways for them :-(
14:27 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: They were very militarized, the children who weren't strong were killed!
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>on the one they had a caste, but which was too small, so they had to fear helot rebellions and could not enact too much far from Peloponnese
14:28 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, this point is very important
14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess back then, when they could have organized in a better way like this, they could have survived
14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine planting in several important locations in Greece such castes would give them the military advantage than being held inside Peloponnese
14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>of course other states would not allow this so easily
14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean with survive: that in these times there is still the city Athens
14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but thought the city Sparta is rebuild it was rebuild after destruction, but now I am jumping in time again too much
14:31 * Erkan_Yilmaz wants to be punished by someone
14:31 <pietrodn>Pausanias, king of Sparta, tried to conquest Byzantium. In Sparta started a rebellion by the Helots, and the Spartans wanted to kill him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_of_Sparta

Athens, Sparta and their allies

14:31 <Daan>The causes which led to the defections of the allies were of different kinds, the principal being their neglect to pay the tribute or to furnish ships, and, in some cases, failure of military service.
14:31 <Daan>That is what Thucydides writes in Book 1 aphorism 99
14:32 <pietrodn>Daan: in Athens you mean?
14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>defection of allies from Athens I guess, though Spartan allies also threatened Sparta with this (e.g. Corinth with Argos)
14:32 <Daan>Yes, the athenian Empire.
14:32 <pietrodn>ok
14:33 <Daan>So, Athens had to use force to subdue allies, which used to be equal.
14:33 - Ramac left
14:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and other powers did not interfere (at least at the begin)
14:33 <pietrodn>After the Peloponnesian War, Corinth, Argos, Athens and Thebes moved war to Sparta... but I'm jumping too much I think
14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn :-)

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14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, so where were we again ?
14:35 <pietrodn>mmh... the allies?
14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta's fear, then allies

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14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, could you say: Athens had a stronger influence on their allies than Sparta ?
14:35 - Ramac joined
14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>welcome back Ramac
14:36 <Ramac>what were you talking about?
14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about the allies of Sparta + Athens
14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and your internet connection probs ;-)
14:36 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: In the past meeting, we said that every polis had to be with Athens, or with Sparta. They couldn't be neutral
14:37 <Ramac>:D
14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they could be or not ?
14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. Corcyra was neutral
14:37 <Daan>Sorry, sudden phonecall.
14:37 <Daan>Have to go to the toilet as well.
14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think they had a treaty somehow regarding this or ?
14:37 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: weel, Melo wanted to be neutral, but Athens destroyed it
14:37 <pietrodn>*well
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, when was Melos destroyed again ?
14:38 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks this up
14:38 <pietrodn>not again
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"But in 415 BC, the Athenians, having attacked the island and compelled the Melians to surrender, slew all the men capable of bearing arms, made slaves of the women and children, and introduced 500 Athenian colonists."
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so this was during the War
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I was referring to before the war
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when both Sparta and Athens had an agreement that states couls also be neutral
14:39 <myrmikonos>beyond christus?
14:39 <myrmikonos>befor
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 415 BC
14:39 <pietrodn>I studied that Melos was destroyed before this date... maybe I'm confusing
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I have the info from WP
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who says WP is right ?
14:39 <myrmikonos>bc befor , ac after
14:39 <pietrodn>yes, I'm looking to the same page
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps we found an error already
14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn could you look this fact up and correct it if it is wrong - for the next time, so we can continue then here ?
14:40 <pietrodn>In thucidides there is the melian dialogue
14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>whcih book ?
14:40 <pietrodn>yes, I'm going to confirm this fact
14:41 <pietrodn>dunno... gonna check
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Book V, 84-106
14:41 <Daan>I am back again.
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Daan
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - should we continue now
14:41 <Daan>Hi Erkan
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then we don't miss your comments here, ok ?
14:42 <pietrodn>ok
14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan we were talking about the force that polis had to join Sparta and Athens, but also that there could be neutral polis
14:42 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I'll check for this fact in the background
14:42 <pietrodn>:-P
14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - ok
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan - what was the last thing we talked before you left ?
14:43 <myrmikonos>"Corcyra was neutral"
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the influence of Sparta and Athens on their allies ?
14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah yeah
14:44 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: On the Internet I found that Athens invaded Melos in 416 BC
14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corcyra's neutrality which led to the meetings in Athens and Sparta
14:44 <Daan>Yes it was, Erkan.
14:44 <Daan>Yes, that was a bog issue.

Corcyra + Athens

14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or better: that Corcyra wanted to join the Delian League
14:44 <Daan>big
14:44 <myrmikonos>:)
14:44 <Daan>Yes, but it was seen as unhonourable by the Corinthians.
14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the 2nd naval force joining hands with the first naval force and therefore threatening Corinth's trades more
14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>unhonourable ?
14:45 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: bad
14:45 <Daan>Corcyra was a Corinthian colony, which wanted to do things their own way.
14:46 <Daan>That was perceived as unhonourable.
14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, that is true
14:46 <Daan>So, the punishment was war.
14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or not true, but I think: I assume that is true :-)
14:46 <pietrodn>lol :-D
14:46 <Daan>That are the words of Corinth, wasn't it.
14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, they did say so
14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let me search the text
14:47 <Daan>But, Corcyra wanted to be on the Athenian side.
14:47 <Daan>To exchange one tyranny for the other, which doesn't make sense.
14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book I, 38
14:47 <Daan>Maybe, they had enough money and manpower to provide the Athenians with ships.
14:48 <Daan>And a desire to use them for their own use.
14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Corcyra did not want to be destroyed, so they probably even would have jumped into Tartarus :-)
14:48 <Daan>That is true.
14:48 <Daan>Well, they could have made a deal with Corinth.
14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if they wanted already they would have joined Athens long ago, but they didn't so they had their reasons
14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>indeed - interesting option
14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but what would Corinth done then ?
14:49 <Daan>I don't know.
14:49 <Daan>All colonies had to do something.
14:49 <pietrodn>tes, that's true
14:49 <Daan>And Corcyra wasn't doing it.
14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably Corinth would have exchanged government in Corcyra and killed the important leaders
14:49 <pietrodn>*yes
14:49 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Ahens would have fighted Corinth
14:49 <Daan>That could have been it.
14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if Corcyra freely wanted to join Corinth, what could Athens do ?
14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>freely meaning "under certain agreements"
14:51 <Daan>What is strange: athens was afraid of Sparta and Sparta of athens, according to Thucydides.
14:51 <pietrodn>Daan: they was both very powerful
14:51 <Daan>Athens didn't thought it could survive without Corcyra.
14:51 <Daan>That is true.
14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I assume Athens what that when the Peloponnese league (only landpower with Corinth as 3rd naval power) joins with 2nd naval power that the claims of Sparta would increase much more

Sparta's army

14:52 <Daan>But Sparta onloy got a well-trained army, which they didn't use for anything, except against Argos, isn't it.
14:52 <Daan>?
14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, they won against Argos and made the 30 years truce
14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but probably also against other cities inside Peloponnese
14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>?
14:53 <Daan>That was an honourable war, for them. Keeping the truce as determined in the traditional rules.
14:53 <Daan>I think so.
14:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: the Spartan force has such numbers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Spartiate#How_Many.3F
14:55 <Daan>But those were the elite, wasn't it?
14:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, they also had their helots
14:55 <Daan>If you got a considerable army with 500 elite troops, than it is better than having no elite troops.
14:56 <Daan>Greece wasn't very big.
14:56 <myrmikonos>at school they told me the polis sticked together , whenever there is a greater enemy
14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which brings us to the numbers of the movie 300 :-)
14:56 <Daan>Wow.
14:56 <Daan>I didn't see it.
14:56 <myrmikonos>having an army isn´t useless
14:56 <Daan>Certainly not.
14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but I assume they used mostly w:hoplite at the begin of the war and then later used more the light-armed troops
14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite

Theory: The Peloponnesian War started as a fight between two systems of government

14:57 <Daan>Theory: The Peloponnesian War started as a fight between two systems of government:
14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess the Spartans needed their army mostly for the helots :-)
14:57 <myrmikonos>i´ll recommend "300.avi"
14:58 <Daan>Sparta defended tradition: each polis with his colonies.
14:58 <Daan>Athens defended an expanding empire, without any rules.
14:58 * Erkan_Yilmaz wonders where pietrodn is ?
14:58 <pietrodn>uh?
14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah you are there :-)
14:58 <pietrodn>:-D
14:58 <Daan>:-)
14:59 <myrmikonos>amigo!
14:59 <myrmikonos>:D
14:59 <pietrodn>Daan: Athens imposed very strong rules on its colonies
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Sparta let every polis mostly its freedom besides giving them oligarchic government, but did not ask for regular tributes
14:59 <Daan>athens send a few thousand troops to Macedon.
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I think Athens had some strict rules
15:00 <pietrodn>Athens was very authoritarian
15:00 <Daan>Pietro, that was pure violence, you could see it as a new rule indeed: Athens is the strongest.
15:00 <Daan>Yes
15:00 <pietrodn>Daan: Yes, it is clear in the Melian dialogue
15:00 <Daan>Erkan, did Sparta do that during the war?
15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan you mean supporting oligarchic governments after defeating enemies ?
15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I assume so, because Sparta started the war with their freedom slogan
15:01 <Daan>Yes
15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>something like: free Greece from Athenian tyranny
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and then they could not enact the same way they said of others (at least so openly haha)
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess with Sparta it was like this: in the Peloponnese they could enact so because everybody feared their army
15:02 * pietrodn tel

Sthenelaidas

15:02 <Daan>The speech of Sthenelaidas?
15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and for the other outside territories they did not have the power to enforce it and kept it under such a slogan
15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>for the others: Sthenelaidas in book I, 86
15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1
15:04 <myrmikonos>>_<
15:04 <myrmikonos><- *reading jam*
15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, Sthenelaidas was pro war
15:05 <Daan>Evil-doer, that sounds famliar.
15:05 <Daan>familiar
15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but he had an interesting tactic in the meeting :-)
15:05 <Daan>And that is?
15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he said that he could not hear who favored which side and let them physically separate
15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine that:
15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then it is very open who voted what and of course his method worked
15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and more people supported the war decision
15:06 <Daan>Maybe it was tradition, and not a method.
15:06 <Daan>But, i don't klnow at all.
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I am not sure either, but Thucydides specifically mentions it, I guess it was mostly decided by who "shouted the loudest" and then if not clear they used stones to collect from the people sitting
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but letting them pysically separate is a strong manipluating method
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but again: it is just what I think about the elections, I can be wrong
15:07 <Daan>That is true.
15:08 <Daan>In Athens there were secret votings, to ensure that nbody knew who voted what.
15:08 <pietrodn>Daan: for ostracism, yes
15:08 <Daan>In other cases it was different?
15:09 <pietrodn>In other cases I don't know how the election was
15:09 <Daan>That is a good remark.
15:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in book I, 87 it is described for Spartan election
15:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"87With these words he, as ephor, himself put the question to the assembly of the Lacedaemonians. He said that he could not determine which was the loudest acclamation (their mode of decision is by acclamation not by voting); the fact being that he wished to make them declare their opinion openly and thus to increase their ardour for war. Accordingly he said: "All Lacedaemonians who are of opinion that the treaty has been broken, and that Athens is guilty, leave your seats and go there," pointing out a certain place; "all who are of the opposite opinion, there." They accordingly stood up and divided; and those who held that the treaty had been broken were in a decided majority."
15:10 <Daan>I have to go soon, so i have to leave you all.
15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan yes you told so, we will miss you :-)
15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: guys anyone against that we make the chat here again public ?
15:10 <Daan>I think you are right, Erkan. It was a tric. But we have to take into account that Thucydides was an Athenian.
15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>advantage: new interested people see what we do and join us more willingly

next meeting

15:11 <Daan>Next week, 101-125?
15:11 <Daan>Same time, same place?
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next week: yes, works for me
15:11 <Daan>Many themes can be rediscussed, of course.
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan - what do you say on making teh chat public ?
15:11 <Daan>Is fine with me.
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we should write in the agenda for next week what we want to discuss specifically ok ?
15:12 <pietrodn>Daan: with pericles, the political men were randomly draw, not elected
15:12 - Ramac quited
15:12 <pietrodn>with some exceptions
15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn Ramac assassingr|away myrmikonos - you also agree to make the chat public, I will remove private irrelevant data which does not suit the topic
15:12 <Daan>Certain points, you mean. But than we need to have multiple people write the agenda for that.
15:12 <Daan>That can be homework, thinking of some points to talk about.
15:12 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: for me is ok to publish the log
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan I meant because if people know in advance what it is talked about they can know and not just listen
15:13 <pietrodn>For the next meeting: can we shedule it more late?
15:13 <pietrodn>*schedule
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which time would you like ?
15:13 <pietrodn>14.00 e.g.
15:13 <pietrodn>(UTC+1)
15:13 <Daan>
14:00 is good with me.
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>
14:00 (UTC+1) is fine for me too
15:14 <Daan>I will go now.
15:14 <pietrodn>i think that
13:00 is too early
15:14 <Daan>See you later.
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye Daan
15:14 <pietrodn>ok :-)
15:14 <Daan>Bye now!
15:14 <pietrodn>Bye!
15:14 - Sundance_Raphael joined
15:14 - Daan quited
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Sundance_Raphael :-)
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you just missed Daan
15:14 * Sundance_Raphael appeart without a sound
15:15 <myrmikonos>[ i have to learn to mark my personal relevant nonsense ;) ]
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how is it going Sundance_Raphael
15:15 * pietrodn is quitting, bye!
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos I will remove private data, ok ?
15:15 - pietrodn quited ("Think different!")
15:15 <myrmikonos>ok
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I will send you a link with what was published ok ?

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15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, pietro also quit :-)
15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so I guess there is no meeting anymore for us on the topic ?

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15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: myrmikonos did you like the session ?

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15:21 <myrmikonos>huuhh the session was intense . i keep in mind : read this stuff

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15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, as you see, we did not talk too much on the text itself
15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and if so, we can summarize for you
15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what is important is the participation with many people
15:29 <Sundance_Raphael>kk
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sundance_Raphael we have already one chat log and I will publish this one (asked about permission), so you could have a look how it is
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>since you have knowledge about it already, I think you can always easily participate

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