Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-February-2

This is the chat from our meeting on 2nd February 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Dank55, Erkan Yilmaz, pietrodn, remote, Turelion, Viele-baeren

getting to know each other

You are now in #thucydides
Topic: Welcome! We are reading at the moment http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Thucydides:_The_Peloponnesian_War
Herzlich Willkommen! Wir lesen zur Zeit von Thukydides: http://de.wikiversity.org/wiki/Kurs:Der_Peloponnesische_Krieg

14:01 - pietrodn joined
14:01 <remote>hi pietrodn
14:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi pietrodn
14:01 <pietrodn>hi all
14:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, should I start with introducing my self ?
14:02 <pietrodn>ok
14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am active at de. and en.WV and together with Daan (he is not yet here and did not react on the mail :-( ) we have started this reading group
14:02 <pietrodn>let's start :-)
14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we had 2-3 meetings and some visitors joining
14:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but the core is Daan and me
14:02 <pietrodn>reading for editing the resource on en.wv?
14:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, that would be one nice outcome, though we can edit many stuff e.g. also on WP
14:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there are many things possible
14:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I read mostly a German Thucydides translation
14:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I have secondary literature in ENG
14:04 <pietrodn>wow
14:04 <pietrodn>I see that on en.wv there is the entire resource... why it isn't on Wikisource instead?
14:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which resource ?
14:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think we just have links ?
14:04 <pietrodn>the entire text of thucidides
14:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you have the link ?
14:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I though text is just on wikisource + elsewhere
14:05 <pietrodn>sorry, it is on wikisource
14:05 <pietrodn>it's non an itnernal link
14:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, today I also met someone at WS who said we can make a link here to gather more attraction:
14:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal_talk:Reading_groups#public_domain_texts
14:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but that is for the future
14:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so far we are about aphorism 1-50
14:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it is no problem to talk about the first ones (since I haven't read them lately :-( )
14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do one of you know already something about the Peloponnesian War ?
14:07 <pietrodn>Yes, I know the first phase
14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>cool
14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>remote: what about you ?
14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you just joined because you saw there was a meeting or ?
14:07 <pietrodn>"archedamical"? I don't know how it's called in English...
14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the archidamian war
14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>431-421 BC
14:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietro - where did you get to know the Peloponnesian War ?
14:09 <remote>no i'm a lurker
14:09 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: at school, we're studying it
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>super, lurkers are welcome here
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietro - oh really ?
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to how much extent ?
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hours per week ?
14:10 * Erkan_Yilmaz does not remember anymore doing this in school
14:10 <pietrodn>3-4 hours of history per week
14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wow, impressing
14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>is this normal ?
14:11 - Dank55 joined
14:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Dank55
14:11 <Dank55>hello/hallo
14:11 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I attend this school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liceo_scientifico
14:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we are just about to start the meeting
14:11 <pietrodn>(PNI)
14:11 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks
14:12 <pietrodn>I'm at the first year
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well we had in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29 only 1,5 h per week
14:13 <Dank55>your english is quite good, pietrodn
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and then later in 12th + 13th class I took as major history (besides maths, english and sports)
14:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn you know Dank55 ? he is an active robotics interested person
14:14 <pietrodn>No, I don't know him.
14:14 <pietrodn>Dank55: :-)
14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw: Dank55 is not the Daan I mean
14:14 <pietrodn>(Now I know him :-P )
14:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
14:14 <Dank55>yes...and i'm also, apparently, to get the WP people to be more tolerant of the needs of roboticists...that's a harder accomplishment, and a greater one :)
14:14 <Dank55>the first to get, i mean
14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well sounds to me like one way the old ancient people do when they are gathering in their meetings to decide about some important action
14:15 <Dank55>but...i am distracted from thudydides...i am a bit busy but i will listen in
14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank55 cool - you are like remote (he said he will be lurking :-) )
14:16 <Dank55>i read herodotus in college (in greek...i have forgotten my greek), and a little thucydides
14:16 * Erkan_Yilmaz can not speak Greek :-(
14:17 * pietrodn can't speak Greek, too
14:17 * remote lurks some more
14:18 * Erkan_Yilmaz loves remote

starting

14:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so pietrodn how should we begin ?
14:19 <pietrodn>I think we should begin with the conflict between Athens and Sparta
14:19 <pietrodn>The different POV of the society
14:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok
14:20 <pietrodn>Athens is democratic, Sparta is aristocratic
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean like: Spartans with their oligarchic system and Athens with their democratic polis ?
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
14:20 <pietrodn>yes
14:20 <Dank55>spartans had much in common with the beginnings of the roman empire,
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, how is this ? example ?
14:21 <Dank55>there was a sense that life was hard, every citizen owed a debt, and not much more should be expected from life
14:21 <Dank55>they had great pride in their ability to endure suffering
14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting, I guess this was also for Athens in one way or ? that they would do anything for their polis
14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>though they were richer
14:22 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: they were richer because of the Delian League
14:22 <Dank55>not every athenian was idealistic...in fact most weren't...but there was great pride in the athenians who were idealistic, who were thinkers and poets
14:22 <Dank55>the spartans thought that such an outlook was corrupting, dangerous
14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank: ah, I see
14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Delian League: well this was achieved because Sparta did not continue their expanison in asia minor and Athens could succeed there with their navy
14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Sparta came back to their policy to restrict only on the Peloponnese
14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank: do you have some examples about this being not so many not idealistic ?
14:24 <pietrodn>Athens made up a very imperialistic politic with the poleis of the Delian League...
14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean that they started to force them tributes or military resources for their help (somehow that reminds me of the mob/mafia :-) )
14:25 <pietrodn>yes, they were not so democratic in this sense
14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>indeed
14:26 <pietrodn>An example of this is the isle of Melo. Melo was neutral, and Athens menaced Melo.
14:26 <Dank55>what we know about the golden age of greece is constructed from many artifacts (that is, things that archeologists dig up), but surprisingly little written material...
14:27 <Dank55>therefore, we have to make guesses that are not guaranteed to be accurate about the majority of greeks,
14:27 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks up where Melos lies
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos
14:27 <Dank55>but the artifacts suggest that most saw themselves as simple farmers or warriors, with a few merchants
14:27 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melos
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see the island is pretty much out of reach
14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the other islanders probably were just self-interested or there was no more naval power available in that region (other naval powers were Corinth, Corcyra, ...)
14:28 <pietrodn>Every polis had to be with Athens, or with Sparta.
14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank55 I have read that things on so called steles are there
14:28 <pietrodn>The could not be neutral.
14:28 <pietrodn>*they
14:29 <Dank55>yes, steles are useful
14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and how are books like the ones from Herodot or Homer survive the centuries ? because they are copied many times ?
14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn - yes, obey the strong ones to survive
14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the small islanders might have thought perhaps: the strong ones can do what they like as long as it does not interfere with our freedom and if so, then we are in a bad situation
14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as I see, Sparta's inactivity on expansion in these areas gave Athens the possibility to expand
14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what about Persia ? they probably had also bad feelings to Athen's expansion
14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean having cities in Asia Minor (on Persia's territory)
14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but since they were beaten, not much to do for them until their time came
14:32 <pietrodn>Persia and Athens were not in war, they signed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Callias
14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so they had some kind of agreement which allowed Athens to expand
14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Athens expands and expands and some people do not like this for some reasons
14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and to come to Thucydides' book then there is this "incident" with Epidamnos
14:38 - Viele-baeren joined
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello Viele-baeren
14:38 <pietrodn>Hi Viele-baeren.
14:38 <Viele-baeren>hi Erkan_Yilmaz
14:38 <Viele-baeren>hi pietrodn
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>guys may I introduce Viele-baeren from the German Wikibooks
14:39 <Viele-baeren>Erkan_Yilmaz: no, im not really active there. I am ABF@commonswiki
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, I see - and do you know something about the Peloponnesian War ?
14:39 <Viele-baeren>hi all of you :)
14:39 - Turelion joined
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wow another one
14:39 <pietrodn>Hello Turelion.
14:39 <Turelion>Hi
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Turelion
14:39 <Viele-baeren>Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, learned a bit about it in year 6 of history
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great
14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>actually today all people here in this meeting are new
14:40 <Viele-baeren>but i forgott nearly everything :(
14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so it is a great opportunity to begin fresh
14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>where is Dank55 and remote again ?
14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you are here ?
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Turelion do you know the Peloponnesian War ?
14:41 <Dank55>i'm more remote than remote is :)
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha
14:41 <pietrodn>:-D

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14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Viele-baeren - so you would like to participate today - in some kind of form ? we just talked shortly about the situation of Athens with the expansion

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14:42 <Turelion>Erkan_Yilmaz, not exactly, I guess it is the time after the persian wars (eg. seafight of salamis) and before Alexander the great
14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is about 431-404 BC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peloponnesian_War

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14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so where were we with the Peloponnesian War again ?
14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens is expanding and obviously some people do not like this

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14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn should we continue e.g. like with the Epidamnos conflict, so others can join fresh with the book ?
14:49 <pietrodn>I don't know what the Epidamnos conflict is...
14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the incident where Corinth and Corcyra fight over and this involves Athens into it
14:50 * Erkan_Yilmaz is searching a WP link

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14:58 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: At the beginning it was not a real war, Athens and Sparta embarked on disturb actions
14:58 <pietrodn>Athens was stronger on the sea, and Sparta was stronger on the earth
14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, it began with not directly them but their allies
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and they actually divided their territories regarding their abilities
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it could perhaps be said that their allies (e.g. Corinth) drove them ultimately to war
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or the war-liking factions in Sparta and Athens
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>though Thucydides tells that Sparta's fear of Athenian power growth lead to it
15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one of the catalysators: the incident about Epidamnos w:Durrës#Greek_foundation which lead also to: w:Battle of Sybota
15:00 <ABFbot>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%25C3%25ABs#Greek_foundation
15:00 <ABFbot>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sybota?redirect=no

history often directly results from geography

15:01 <Turelion>I have once learned, that history often directly results from geography, and I think ancient greece is a good example.
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, you can elaborate on this more ?
15:02 <Turelion>Of course, I just waited on your question ;-)
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so I should ask you more then ?
15:02 <Turelion>greece is a country full of hills, which part effictively all the regions.
15:03 <Turelion>So ancient greece became a land full of differencies
15:03 <Turelion>Athen, the city of wisdom
15:03 <Turelion>Sparta, the city of war
15:03 <Turelion>Corinth, the city of trade
15:04 <Turelion>Delphi, the city of religion
15:04 <Turelion>and i think, you can find other examples
15:04 <Turelion>Persia was much greater, but from east to the west it was far more the same.
15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens' soil was indeed not so good which as it says in Thucydides made it ideal for people to join them (because they were not in trouble by others who wanted their land) and which lead probably to the naval activities to get grains from the black sea
15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I guess Corinths position in between Peloponnes and other Greece made it ideal for bypassers
15:05 <Turelion>That is another thing, which helps my thesis: To Greece belong lots of insulas and penninsulas
15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:704px-Greece_topo.jpg
15:06 <Turelion>Greece was great at sea
15:06 <Turelion>sea
15:06 <Turelion>sea
15:06 <Turelion>Seefahrt
15:06 <Turelion>Sailing?
15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>seafaring
15:06 <Turelion>Thanks
15:07 <Turelion>Also because of their geography
15:07 <Turelion>But, back to the war
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so Athens and Corinth and Corcyra were good with their navy (Athens + Corinth being in the same region)
15:07 <Turelion>Greece was predestinated to develop more than one dominating cultures
15:08 <Turelion>And one day this had to lead to war.
15:08 <Turelion>Did I make myself clear?
15:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, you are saying like: that they could develop undisturbed though to their geographic situations and when they want to expand they reach the freedom borders of others - like this ?
15:09 <Turelion>Yes, I think, thats it.
15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, makes sense
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at the begin of Thucydides it is also told that the barbarians always came into Greece and dispelled the previous owners of land since they had no fortifications and such and e.g. Athens due to its bad soil could be spared from such and involve not so much in the lifestyle by sword
15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and e.g. Lesbos and Chios since Islands were also not harmed by intruders and could develop a good navy
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and since the entrance to Peloponnes is also "guarded" by some cities this also makes it with less intruders into their (though they have other internal probs)
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so their are several powers developing Greece
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I shoudl really look more on my typos :-)
15:14 <Turelion>^^

plague of Athens

15:14 <pietrodn>Should we discute on the pestilence in Athens on 429 BC?
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean the plague ?
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>o, why not
15:15 <pietrodn>yes
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>dont know much so about it - just heard that Thucydides describes it in detail, but I did not read the paragraph itself yet
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it could enhance to such an extent because of the many people inside of the walls ?
15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as I read quite many people died
15:16 <pietrodn>my History teacher gave us the text of Thucidides, but there weren't enough copies... I don't have one at the moment
15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we could find it in wikisource I am sure
15:17 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Pericles packed the population of Athens inside the city, so the plague spread quickly
15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah I read once that even sanctuaries were not spared to fill people in there
15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I wonder if Pericles also thought of this happening ?

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15:21 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_2#Second_Year_of_the_War_-_The_Plague_of_Athens_-_Position_and_Policy_of_Pericles_-_Fall_of_Potidaea I read this today
15:21 <pietrodn>(in Italian)
15:21 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks
15:22 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Pericles didn't know how to avoid plague
15:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have such bad sanitary devices ? because I guess with ships they could bring much food (with vitamins) or probably not all people inside the city could afford that and from there it spread ?
15:25 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I think the Greeks didn't know how to cure plague, they didn't isolate the ill people
15:25 <pietrodn>but they was a lot solidal, even with the plague
15:25 <pietrodn>*were
15:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>isolating: wouldn't people do this automatically ? I mean people normally fear - so they would fear infection
15:27 <Turelion>I have once heard a story about troy: The people did not clean up their floor. They waited, until there was enough wastes lying on it. Then they made a new layer of plaster floor (german: Estrich) on it.
15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I also read that the plaque infected their army in other regions like this: they send troops from Athens and so this harmed them also
15:28 <Turelion>Troy was just around the corner, and just a few centuries before that.
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Turelion - who knows perhaps they wanted the methane to warm their feet ? :-)
15:28 <Turelion>rofl
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
15:28 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Yes, they was scared, but some people wanted to cure the ill people... and got infected
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is bad :-(
15:29 <Turelion>I wanted to say, that they perhaps did not have the knowledge
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the plaque took many people, e.g. Pericles
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but still Athens was in a condition to continue and Sparta did not use the opportunity to make a peace on favourable terms
15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps they thought that Athens could be destroyed completely after the plaque
15:32 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: the doctors were infected, because they tried to cure the plague
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let me read the intro here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens don't know this section in Thucydides
15:35 <pietrodn>1/3 of the Athens people died because of the plague
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>quite much
15:36 <pietrodn>«Thucydides stated that people ceased fearing the law since they felt they were already living under a death sentence. Likewise people started spending money indiscriminately. Many felt they would not live long enough to enjoy the fruits of wise investment, while some of the poor unexpectedly became wealthy by inheriting the property of their relatives. It is also recorded that people refused to behave honourably because most did not expect to live
15:36 <pietrodn>this is an important thing IMHO
15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess it is hard to imagine how it is since I was not in such a situation, but I guess this is a normal reaction to external factors (e.g the disease) ?
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>since the disease makes no division after some kind of factor (e.g. wealth, young/old, male/female) it can have bad effects
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine all necessary people die in the first wave and nobody with experience available
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>people have to learn how to do their functions and would make mistakes
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and as you said, the doctors got infected
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one way could be to bring in doctors from elsewhere with ships ? or perhaps they did not want to enter the danger zone ?
15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or a strict division of killing the infected - I mean in the course of the war they did many killings (also to people who already surrendered)
15:42 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Nobody knew how to cure the plague... it's like our avian flu
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well then another option is to leave the city - save the kids and females first :-) - and spread the disease to the rest of the world
15:43 <pietrodn>uhm... it's not a good comparison
15:43 <pietrodn>(mine)
15:43 <pietrodn>:-D
15:43 <pietrodn>it's not a good idea :-P
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, but somehow the plaque stopped
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do you want to talk more on the effects of the disease or the time specifically ?
15:44 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: Thucidides ws infected, but he survived
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>on the disease itself I can not tell you much, would have to read the article
15:44 <pietrodn>*was
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, if he would not have survived, how tragic for us
15:45 <pietrodn>We can go on :-)
15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but perhap somebody else would have written the history
15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so another thing in mind:
15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the Spartans did actually a good thing by besieging Athens :-) LOL
15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to restrict it to a certain area only
15:46 <pietrodn>:-P
15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess the Spartan troops also fled
15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they probably feared infections too
15:46 <pietrodn>«The city-state of Sparta, and much of the eastern Mediterranean, was also struck by the disease.»
15:46 <pietrodn>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens
15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is a good war weapon :-)
15:46 <pietrodn>yes, but you can't control it!
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true

outro

15:48 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: the next topic is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Nicias ? Or there are other important events?
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Peace came 421
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you just missed 10 years of war :-)
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am privately starting with the Peace of Nicias soon
15:50 <pietrodn>:-D
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in the course itself we were at Book1, 1-50 (50-100)
15:50 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: At school we didn't study so much details
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but since we are the two only talking right now (besides Turelion chipping in) we can cover many other events
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so until the Peace of Nicias I can give you some input with facts and for the other I would have to assume what might be probable
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. from the time 431-421 there was:
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps we can find a timeline
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one mom
15:53 <pietrodn>there was Cleone
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>here is one graphical: http://www.timelines.info/history/conflict_and_war/ancient_wars_and_conflicts/peloponnesian_wars/
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>should we follow this one ?
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>death of Pericles is because of the plague in Athens so that we covered :-)
15:55 <pietrodn>wow, that's a cool timeline
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but it misses some events
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also would be good if with a click it goes to a page with more info
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who knows in the course of this project we could build such a time line
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or we find a better one
15:56 <pietrodn>we can create one with EasyTimeline :-P
15:56 <pietrodn>It's not very easy, though.
15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>looks nice: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EasyTimeline
15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as I see it is available in WV: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:Version
15:59 <pietrodn>yeah, I've used it for representing a piece of the history of criptography, but i don't remember the syntax now. http://it.wikibooks.org/wiki/Utente:Pietrodn/Sandbox
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok
16:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so pietrodn - what do we do now ? we could continue or make it stop for now (we have already 2h) ? did you like the meeting ? what about you Turelion - wanna join also other meetings ?
16:02 <pietrodn>Now I'm going to stop - I should make my homework
16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok - what about you Turelion ?
16:03 <Turelion>Erkan_Yilmaz, no, sorry, at the moment my mind deals to much with programming
16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>btw guys: what do you think on making this chat publically available ? so other interested persons can see what we did ?
16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I would remove material not to do with the Peloponnesian War
16:04 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: you have my authorization to publish the log of this chat
16:05 <pietrodn>:-)
16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also send you what is going to be made available before publishing
16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx pietrodn
16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Turelion - what do you say ?
16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Dank55 remote Viele-baeren - what do you say ?
16:05 * Viele-baeren away
16:10 <Turelion>I'm content with publishing the chat-log
16:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx Turelion
16:18 <Dank55>you have my authorization
16:18 <Dank55>in fact, i feel strongly that everyone should read my magnificent thoughts
16:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great
16:19 <Dank55>(that was humor, in case there are people here whose english is not good)
16:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
16:21 <Dank55>what was the plague, possibly the black death (yersinia pestis)?
16:21 <Dank55>or smallpox?
16:21 <Turelion>There are 29 candidates for it.
16:21 <Dank55>wow
16:22 <Turelion>Including Ebola
16:23 - remote left
16:23 <Turelion>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attische_Seuche#Hypothesen
16:23 <pietrodn>Dank55: black death

todo

• build a time line