Talk:Development of hieroglyphic writing
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Response: The front claw seems to be holding the same thing in both images, a arched box (one box is pushed up against a vertical line). The other claw holds a 'line' and in the left example the line opens to a hole and the other it is but a dot... It certainly looks similar to an Ankh on the left... I wonder if it used to be a dot on a line and the dot opened? Notice how if you look at it as a 3D image, it looks like the bird has landed on a table and the thing it's grabbing looks like a mallet. Interesting example. I think the Ankh will be a really fun one to examine. --NBuccalo 05:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm confused about the Anket entry. To my knowledge Anket (or Anukis) refers to a goddess, not a hieroglyph. Or did you have something else in mind? Barta 19:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Anket, I think I was referring to something different and was trying to remember the name... funny, cause I don't think I've ever heard of Anket before, but it sounded right --NBuccalo 04:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Ankh: I noticed the Ankh didn't show up as a hieroglyph in the Gardner List. Is it a hieroglyph? My confusion is when I see it on an example of what hieroglyphs are, like here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs; Image, Ankh is near top right: Papyrus of Ani or on the Rosetta Stone. Never the less, I'd like to include is and perhaps other things I find (if not hieroglyphs) as part of our analysis. --NBuccalo 04:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Ankh is S34 in Gardiner's list. Barta 16:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
I've started this, my first, questions and comments page... please help edit the format, thanks. --NBuccalo 16:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
General Discussion Topics- Formating of information
I liked your method for identifying data for Pyramids and mastabas. I was thinking of the development of heiroglyphs that were made into jewelry or other items, like the Ankh. What I'd like to see in the description of hieroglyphs, besides title, location and date, is the size of the artifact. For writing on wall I don't think this has any significance. But for jewelry, it can show one aspect of the evolution and stylization of the item. --NBuccalo 16:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Should we have 'lines' separating each hieroglyph? I see you put them in and this might be a good idea considering how many examples for each we will be posting? --NBuccalo 19:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
We have several theories, some with references but no links to additional information regarding the sources and to a fuller description of these other theories. Additionally, I feel we should have a time line devoted to the Ankh, which I know will be very hard to create, but could show the evolution of the design itself to help acknowledge how meaning either changed or became better represented over time. --NBuccalo 19:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
The front claw seems to be holding the same thing in both images, a arched box (one box is pushed up against a vertical line). The other claw holds a 'line' and in the left example the line opens to a hole and the other it is but a dot... It certainly looks similar to an Ankh on the left... I wonder if it used to be a dot on a line and the dot opened? Notice how if you look at it as a 3D image, it looks like the bird has landed on a table and the thing it's grabbing looks like a mallet. Interesting example. I think the Ankh will be a really fun one to examine. --NBuccalo 16:02, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I want to create a diagram to help people analysis the Ankh correctly, to appreciate its subtleties. It will consist of the following (roughly put):
- 1) Center vertical guide line should show that both left portion of the Ankh and right portion are reverse images and that the arms are of equal length on both sides.
- 2) Horizontal guide line centered on the horizontal arms should show that portion of the arm above the guide line is a mirror image of what is below (a reflection).
- 3) The Arms ends are larger and decrease in size towards the center.
- 4) (this one is hard to describe) The cirvalinear shape above the horizontal arms is not a circle or oval. It should spring from an area around the intersection off all parts and angle between both the vertical and horizontal guide lines, curving gently until it reaches a point where is it partially a radius form. Where the arc crosses the center vertical guide line, it the arc appears to flatten out. The reverse is true.
- 5) The vertical portion below the arms (Base) springs from the center in an angled fashion similar to the reverse area above the arms represented by the curvilinear form.
- 6) After this initial angle downward, the base line(s) move generally straight down but not exactly, more of a slight angle away from the outside edges of each other.
- 7) Towards the ends of the base and at the lowest portion of the Ankh, the lines may flare out more.
- 8) The Base may, as in potentially early examples, may have two lines which somewhat echo the arc'd lines above the arms.
- 9) The Arms may, as in potentially early examples, may be divided horizontally into two equal reflective parts.
- 10) The Arms may, as in potentially early examples, have at their center a horizontal rectangular shape superimposed on the arms and symmetrically positioned.
- 11) The Arc above the Arms may, as in potentially early examples, have it uppermost part flatter than in later examples.
- 12) All the parts may, as in potentially early examples, be more linear (i.e., as if drawn in lines) in form while later stylized examples are more solid in form merging the variety of parts and simplifying the geometry and details (as did the Pyramids).
--NBuccalo 16:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
N18: Island, Horizon, Desert
Speculation: I believe this was used at the center and aligned with the arms of the Ankh denoting horizon. Furthermore, I believe it was intentionally used in early Ankh symbols to help people read the Ankh correctly, that is, as a picture of the Nile. --NBuccalo 20:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Speculation: "To fill with land to create a field?" --NBuccalo 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Phonetically N26 stands for Dju (Dw) and it represents a logogram of a mountain.
Speculation: "Two mountains and a valley, the Nile valley" --NBuccalo 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC) Speculation: okay (stands for a mountain), but it seems odd to then show 'mountains', and what do mountains create... valleys. To me its a figure/ground relationship, the 'object' in the middle is the valley (the void). I'd be interested to know what context(s) this was used in to see if it had another association, or if the meaning changed over time. --NBuccalo 21:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
N27 is a logogram representing the horizon. The horizon appears in the official names of the sungod Aten.
The second version being a later form of the name of the Aten, representing the elimination of names of old deities.
Speculation: "Sun shining on the valley of the Nile" --NBuccalo 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
N28: Crown, Hill of the Sunrise
One of the standard titles of the pharaoh was "sa Re neb khau" which is sometimes translated to "Son of Re, Lord of Horizons"
I have also seen it translated as "Lord of Crowns" or "Lord of Diadems"
Speculation: "who needs N27 when you have N28" --NBuccalo 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
N30: Hill of Earth
Speculation: "Human made hill?" --NBuccalo 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Note wave form --NBuccalo 19:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
The garden scene from a tomb in Thebes (maybe 1400 BC) shows a pond with flowers and animals. In the perfume making scene a depiction of a pool is shown above the vat, but there are no water waves indicated.
In Gardener's List, it is drawn with waves in the center. --NBuccalo 03:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
O36: wall, enclosure
like the perimeter wall?
I would like to explore hieroglyphs that have anything to do with the following subjects and their derivations:
- Ankh and anything that looks like or has some of the components of an Ankh including a line with a dot.
- water, river, inundation, flow or direction of Nile, wave.
- Sun, sunrise, sunset, path of sun, cycle of sun, etc. Including derivations like the Akhet AND the Mound symbol. N7 hieroglyph.
- anything with an arch form, or sine wave form,
- bridges and boats