Atlantis

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U.S. Navy hydrographic map
Atlantis map Kampanakis.jpg

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This discussion is about whether Atlantis existed and the possible location of Atlantis in the Azores. 10,000 years BC water levels were lower than they were today. The legend of Atlantis holds that Atlantis was in existence around 9600 B.C. before it was claimed that it sank into the sea. Ancient Greece was not in existence around this time, so accounts of Greece interacting with Atlantis may be fictional, but based on other accounts.

The map on the upper left is a bathymetric map of the ocean floor of the North Atlantic as it exists today. This map is constructed from U.S. Navy data. It is obvious that the floor of the Atlantic is elevated along the Mid Atlantic Rift from Iceland to well South of the Azores. In addition, it is easy to see the Azores Plateau and the area surrounding it. If you click on it you can see a larger more detailed version of the map. On the larger version you can make out the locations of interest to you. Remember, this is a under water depth map, and it is color coded by depth.

It is apparent that the Azores plateau is still significantly elevated from the ocean floor or the Abyssal Plane to the East and to the West of the MAR. It is now under water. Evidence exists that it was not completely under water during the last glaciation. That is what this discussion is about. In addition, recent research and knowledge accumulated about volcanic eruption both on the floor of the oceans and on land has raised suspicions that demand re-examination of the so-called Atlantis Myth. Might it have the same existence as the fabled city of Troy before the actual site was discovered? Respect for the oral traditions of early man, known geology, recent research and revelations in vulcanology regarding supervolcanoes make re-examination of facts practical. However, prediction and followup of supervolcanic eruptions is problematic.[1] The size of under water caldera systems under the ocean floor is hard to accurately construct from P wave data acquisition because of being under water and the Azores Plateau thickness.[2] Click on the back arrow to get back to this page.

The following contribution was added to the talk page quite some time ago. It discusses the glaciation particulars of the North Atlantic, North America and Northern Europe during the last period of glaciation prior to 10 - 12 thousand years ago. This is the epoch when Atlantis is being postulated to have existed in the mid-Atlantic by Plato's writings.

Thanks, Entripic, for your contribution. Sorry it took me so long to find it.

Further to the Azores hypothesis, here are a couple more supporting points:[edit]
  1. The weight of the glaciers on the continents. Consider the glacial mass of a 2-4 km of ice on top of Canada, the Great Lakes and New England regions of the US, Northern Europe, Northern Russia, and Northwest Siberia. This is equivalent to an ocean on top of the northern continents. Additional glacial weight would have been exerted on the southern Andes, and on mountains throughout the world. Here are a couple maps of the northern hemisphere during the Last Glacial Maximum circa 22,000 YA, and the relevant Wikipedia page:
  2. Please note the glaciation was focused on the North Atlantic / North Sea region. This indicates that something was disrupting the Gulf Stream. Here's a couple maps of the stream-flow, and the relevant Wikipedia page:
  3. Commons:File:Golfstream.jpg

This map from Wikipedia clearly illustrates the relationship between the Azores Plateau and the Gulf stream. Please note that if the Azores Plateau were above the surface of the North Atlantic that it would at least partially obstruct the Gulf Stream. The Gulf Stream would then not reach the shoreline of Western Europe as it does today. That would affect the climate and it would be much colder in that area of the world.

Without the warm waters of the Caribbean reaching the Northern Atlantic, Europe would freeze, and the flow of frigid waters from the Labrador Sea would freeze the Atlantic coast of North America as far south as New York. Iceland is a large igneous province created by a plume (essentially a super-volcano) not a continental fragment, therefore if it was covered in a glacier several kilometres thick, it should sink under the weight. Magmatic displacement from both Iceland, and the continents to the east and west of the North Atlantic would have placed stress on the Mid-Atlantic Rise (MAR), as well as other volcanically active areas. Consider the information in the following article:

While the article is about super-volcanoes in general, the information is relevant to the MAR. If molten rock accumulated under the MAR its buoyancy would simply lift the MAR, as the region only has water above it, which is both lighter than continental rock, and easily displaced.

An ice bridge existed during the most recent glaciation that connected Northern Europe and North America.[3]

Entripic's Conclusion: Atlantis' rising and falling could be the cause of the repeated glaciations of the last few million years.

Entrepic (discuss • contribs) 09:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Adding to Entripic's post, there is a lot of recent research into the melting of glaciers

It is possible that what remained of Atlantis' culture and sea port settlements after Atlantis sank from a supervolcanic eruption was flooded also by glacier melt. It seems that glaciers can melt very rapidly after a "Tipping Point" is reached.

To understand this concept, watch the video...

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 18:04, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs)Disclaimer; Stop before you continue. Realize that as far as science is concerned, we only have evidence, not proof. This Atlantic location of Atlantis in the Azores may never rise to the level of proof enough to satisfy every skeptic. However, you cannot pick and choose which part of Plato's writings you accept and which parts you do not accept. Either it is history or it is not. Plato may have embellished it some, but from the geography and location, it is unlikely he embellished the location because of the geology part that has only recently become known to science, especially in the light of recent scientific research that shows the potential in the Azores for significant catastrophic geologic activity. If Atlantis did exist, it likely existed when Plato said it did and where he said that it did. Otherwise, you must consider if you may be using this legend for your own gain.RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs)

There are many hypotheses to the location of ancient Atlantis, or discussions and hypotheses as to whether it really ever existed. Many of these discussions and controversies are long-standing. Some location hypotheses could be related to Atlantis in the Atlantic and some definitely are not.

Keep in mind that the National Science Foundation is conducting research into supervolcanoes that are located on the ocean floor. According to the article describing this research the so-called Azores plateau is a supervolcano just as any other underwater plateau.[4]. Also, since 80% of volcanoes on the planet Earth are located under water, we are just beginning to find them. he alternate theory regarding the formation of underwater plateaus is moot for the Azores Plateau. "P" wave tomography has revealed a caldera under the Azores Plateau. In addition, geologic samples has revealed that the rock being sampled was delivered by a mantle plume because of it's physical and chemical makeup.

Is Atlantis fiction?[edit]

Plato's account seems like fiction. Ancient Greece came into existence around the 9th century B.C, and Atlantis was around in 9,600 B.C. Did the histories of these two civilizations cross paths?

Plato's account could be of a real Atlantis, but of a fictional Greek interaction with this civilization.

Could Plato have combined a Mediterranean volcano and oral tradition accounts and/or civilization history with a real account of Atlantis, to fabricate a new fiction?

Aristotle mentions Plato creating fables of civilizations then destroying them.[5]

Let us go to the source. Aristotle was hung up in realism and is known as the father of modern medicine. Plato, on the other hand, was an idealist who looked to theory rather than evidence. Therefore, he was more likely to rely on the historical and ideological evidence of the oral folklore tradition. Both of the philosophers, Aristotle and Plato have their place in the scientific methods used for research today.

Timaeus http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

Critias http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Occurrences[edit]

Geologic[edit]

Underwater Volcanic Eruptions

80% of all volcanic eruptions occur underwater, on the floor of the Earth's oceans.

It is not a well-know fact, however, for every volcanic eruption found there statistically has to be 4 more that occurred on an ocean floor, somewhere.[6] See: http://ocean.si.edu/ocean-videos/submarine-volcanoes-erupting

SUPERVOLCANO Eruptions[7]

Since the Azores islands are located on a underwater plateau that is on or near to an underwater supervolcano caldera, it behooves one to familiarize themselves with supervolcanoes and their characteristics and behaviors before one considers Atlantis not to be in the Azores or Atlantis being a fabrication of Plato. http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1845/2055

The fact that the Azores islands are located near or at the conjunction of three tectonic plates, the North American Plate, the European Plate and the Nubian or African Plate is significant. The Mid-Atlantic Rift that is continuously generating new sea floor through an on-going volcanic eruption adds to the geological complexity of this piece of real estate. As if that were not enough the Azores Plateau is atop a piece of lithosphere plugging the caldera of a supervolcano that is fed by a Mantle Plume. In addition, the lava flow is partially melt from the friction of the lithosphere and partially by the Mantle Plume as is evidenced by analyzing the isotope content of the elements composing the rock, the ratios of those elements, the elements themselves and the chemistry of the geological samples from that area[8].

This IS science. This is cutting edge science. Prominent scientific careers are at stake and prominent scientific careers will be made by scientists who are able to prove certain facts as they have been in the past, whether or not Atlantis existed, let alone if it was in the Azores.

Just because this hypothesis has not been researched to the level theory and/or proof is no reason to write off these geologic facts supporting the hypothesis. It is no reason to find fault with Plato's writings, either. In fact, a supervolcanic eruption underwater at this location would encumber sailing ships for a long time with floating pumice. Since we are talking an underwater Ultra Plinian eruption, such an eruption is beyond the current ability of science to discuss the results. Not enough is known to do this according to the following Wikipedia reference.[9]

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 16:05, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Rise in sea level[edit]

Sea levels were 200-300 ft lower 10,000B.C. than today.[10] Around, 6,500 B.C. sea levels rose.[10] Some coastlines were 50-100 miles farther out than they are today.[10] RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Reasonable Locations[edit]

It is probable that since Atlantis was described as a seafaring nation that was a significant military power as Plato described that all of the other locations claimed to be Atlantis through the ages were merely colonies or possessions of this maritime culture. All of the possible locations are near or in the sea. When Atlantis sank civilization in coastal areas must have suffered total devastation. The ruins of these places ended up under water after the glaciers melted in the north, inundating their ruins and moving shorelines inland all over the world, in some cases they were moved inland by hundreds of miles.[10] RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Thera (Santorini)[edit]

The island of Santorini (Thera) is circular in shape, and is the corpse residual of a massive volcanic detonation which dates are coincidental to most pre-history Atlantis theory (5000-12,000 B.C). The explosion was so massive it is conceptualized that the resulting tsunami(s) destroyed many coastal nations in that area of the Mediterranean and wiped out any immediate civilization inhabiting on or within a many, many mile radius of Thera- including a massive destruction to the island of Crete. Crete has well documented Minoan ruins dating to at least 3500 B.C. possibly much earlier. But not 9,000 years earlier. The now (extinct) Minoan civilization is unique and does not cohabit Greko-Roman civilizations, and is considered to be unique and Sovereign in culture, art, economy, religion and government. This has led many believers to strongly relate the Minoan civilization to the Atlantean hypothesis. Strong geophysical and historical evidence supports that the Minoan civilization could have been one and the same- the lost civilization of Atlantis, but Plato would have had to have been deliberately lying about the time frames. Did he have a motive to lie? For more information regarding Santorini, go to the following site. Wikipedia: Location hypotheses of Atlantis

Azores[edit]

The Azores Plateau or Islands were described in the writings of Plato as the ancient location of Atlantis. This plateau is located over a rift where tectonic plates pull apart from each other, a caldera and a mantle plume originating in the Earth's core. Could the separation of these plate masses along with a volcanic eruption around 10 thousand years B.C. such as the one that occurred in Yellowstone Park in the U.S. 650 thousand years ago have caused this plateau to sink? Keep in mind there is no rift valley in Yellowstone Park. There is only the caldera and the mantle plume and ground that rises and falls periodically.

Unlike some other candidates for Atlantis which only have one volcano or even NO volcanoes, the Azores Islands have either one volcano or several volcanoes. On each of the Azores islands, many volcanoes are not extinct, some are dormant and some are active. Check it out here on wikipedia... Wikipedia: List of volcanoes in Portugal also, you may want to look over this website http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/portugal.html that lists 15 volcanoes, many considered still active, although if they are associated with a supervolcano and its caldera, plus a mantle plume, I seriously doubt if any listed on either site are truly extinct, but instead they are just dormant. Again, please remember, all of these volcanoes are associated with the mid-Atlantic ridge, 3 continental plates AND a supervolcano caldera that is fed by a mantle plume and lithosphere/tectonic plate interaction, in addition to the MAR seafloor formation.

Following the hypothesis that the Azores area exists over a supervolcano recent research draws the conclusion that the Azores caldera exhibits the same structures under water that exists in Toba in the Pacific and others. The descriptions are drawn from the results of P-wave tomographic studies describes magma resulting from lithospheric friction as well as magma plumes[11].

This supports the hypothesis that indeed an underwater supervolcano exists at the Azores Plateau that is indeed capable of an eruption of VEI 8.

Mount Pico is the highest mountain in the Atlantic ocean. It is the cone of a Stratovolcano and its formation is about 10,000 years old according to Wikipedia: Mount Pico This correlates with the time frame given by Plato in his writings for the demise of Atlantis. Coincidence or confirmation of the accuracy of Plato's story of Atlantis sinking? In addition, tsunamis flooded the Atlantic 8 - 10 k years ago as indicated in this site. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27224243

This would be part of the disturbance in the Atlantic Ocean when Atlantis sank as the result of an underwater Supervolcanic eruption in or near the Azores that caused the demise of Atlantis. There are other records of tsunamis around the Atlantic basin that roughly correspond with Plato's original time line. In addition, there were tsunamis in the Mediterranean sea that also correspond to the time line.

The flood of the Black Sea through the Bosporus occurred around 6-10,000 years ago according to various sources and their estimates. Or, according to http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clihis10k.html Could this breach have been the result of tsunamis from the sinking of Atlantis?

To confirm this hypothesis of Atlantis in the Azores only requires one to gather information already available.

J. Garner PhD aka RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs)

Hypothesis by J. Garner PhD[edit]

The original discussion of the Azores as a location for Atlantis began on the Azores site. It evolved over a period of several years, beginning in 2009. Geological correlation started to become apparent to me. Although correlation cannot be used as direct evidence, the evidence seems to be accumulating and science seems to be providing increasing research to uphold this hypothesis. It was moved here so that the discussion might continue, with people discussing not the evidence that Atlantis was located somewhere other than the Azores, and at another time, but that Atlantis was located exactly where Plato said it was located and it existed exactly when he said that it existed. My Master's Degree is in Physics, and my Doctorate is in Education. As time permits, I will add items to support this hypothesis. If you have something that you can document that supports the Azores as the center of Alantean civilization please add it by editing. If you are not sure how to do this leave me a message or go ahead and do your edit and it can be re-formatted later.

Description of how an entire mountain range estimated to be 12,000 feet high disappeared into the Super Volcano Caldera at Yellowstone National Park USA.[12]

Dr. Jake Lowenstern is a research geologist with the USGS. (United States Geological Survey). Jake Lowenstern is a scientist-in-charge at the Yellowstone Volcano Observatory. The U.S. Geological Survey is based in Menlo Park, California. Dr. Lowenstern confirms that a supervolcano such as Yellowstone has no cone but instead has a huge caldera that presents itself at Yellowstone as a huge valley. Dr Lowenstern when asked during an interview about the Yellowstone Caldera swallowing real estate states that the last eruption at Yellowstone swallowed up a 12,000 foot high mountain range making it disappear by causing it to sink into the caldera.

Thus a mountain range has sank into the Yellowstone Supervolcano Caldera 650 million years ago during its last supervolcanic eruption. It is still missing, apparently, just like Atlantis. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

The similarity of Atlantis sinking into the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, beneath which the Azores supervolcanic caldera is located.

Picture the Azores super volcano erupting under water. The ocean floor opens up in a circle-like manner around the Azores plateau that was the original island of Atlantis. The eruption ended up causing the island to sink as Plato described, "...in one terrible day and night" Sinking into the ocean causing terrible disruptions on the ocean surface with tsunamis, extremely large amounts of super-heated steam rising from the ocean and super-heated pumice rock floating to the ocean surface plugging up the surface of the ocean.

This catastrophe ushers in the modern appearance of the world and the end of the last ice age with climate changes, mass extinctions and pushing the civilization of mankind into a new era.

The more that one studies super-volcanoes the more one understands that the Azores Islands and the sunken caldera of the supervolcano there presents a unique geological formation on the Planet Earth.

There is simply no other geological formation that comes close to mimicking this one for the location of Atlantis as Plato described in Timeus. First, you have a supervolcano, and it is currently as active as the one at Yellowstone National Park in America, except this one is under water. This supervolcano is also fed by a mantle plume.

Furthermore, it is on the mid-Atlantic rift where new seafloor is being formed. In addition, it is at the intersection of the North American Plate, the European Plate and the African Plate.

Claiming that deep sea cores from millions of years ago proves that the Azores has been underwater for millions of years is not quite accurate unless you completely ignore volcanism and what is happening at Yellowstone Park in the USA. The Alps mountains exhibit evidence that they were once the floor of a sea bed. This old Earth is a restless lady. Ground can go up it certainly can subside also, especially in an area of a unique geologic formation that science is only beginning to understand. A significant part of the Geologists of the world deny this fact. The conservative geologic scientists of the time denied Wagner's Theory of Plate Tectonics also called Continental Drift until they were forced to accept it by overwhelming evidence. Alfred Wagner was not educated as a geologist.

As I stated above in 2009, there is little research into the Azores as a location for Atlantis, but claims abound that place it's location at numbers of other places that Plato didn't even mention. The geologic formations are in the Azores to support Plato's story.

Furthermore, this website, http://www.cvarg.azores.gov.pt/seismic/index.html documents the current activity of the Supervolcano in the Azores and it is just as active as the Supervolcano at Yellowstone National Park in Wyoming in the USA. The only difference is that it is deep on the floor of the ocean. It is a collapsed caldera and it is still active.

Plato's documentation should be accepted as written. After all, we still study his philosophy. However, when it comes to his historical writings, the establishment does everything that it can to deny the possibility that Atlantis is right where Plato said it was. The problem is that there were no geologists in Plato's time. I understand caution. If caution crosses the line to denial then scientific knowledge is obstructed. Look how long it took the concept of Continental Drift to be widely accepted. There is a lot of research that still exists from cores taken form the floor of the Atlantic Ocean that is presently being ignored that support wide-spread volcanic eruptions in the Atlantic Basin 10,000 years ago toward the end of the last Ice Age. As time permits I will present this evidence here in Wikiversity. This is not an Edgar Cayce prediction. It is a written record from one of the greatest philosophers who ever lived and modern research that supports Plato's writings.

Furthermore, Plato describes in perfect detail the scientific description of a supervolcanic eruption. How would he know this? It is time to shake of the bonds of gradualism and to realize that the last ice age ended abruptly at the time that Plato says the eruption occurred. Is this merely a coincidence? There is evidence of spectacular mass extinctions, tsunami activity, and there is evidence of catastrophic climate change at that time.

This subject deserves discussion and research. Just saying it didn't happen on misapplied evidence and charges that the time frame and location is incorrect on intuitive assumptions is not science, it is denial.

In evidence of Plato's description of Atlantis, the ground and the city, surrounded by concentric rings of land and rings of water or canals, all navigable from an ocean bay one can see that this is a rough description of a collapsed volcanic caldera. Admittedly, these geologic structures exist at locations all over the world. Atlantis could not have been at each and every one of them. http://geology.com/articles/caldera/ Also, see http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/Calderas.html

It is an accepted fact that a 'hot spot' exists that has created the Hawaiian Island Chain. http://www.hawaii.edu/environment/ainakumuwai/html/ainakumuwaiislandformation.htm However, what might happen if this spot corresponded exactly with a rift zone?

http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/visualizations/es0903/es0903page01.cfm?chapter_no=visualization

With the two descriptions given picture a 'hot spot' passing under a rift zone. Is this what could have happened to Atlantis?

Might a 'hot spot' such as the one at Yellowstone or the one close to Iceland moving under a rift zone cause a portion of a plate to break off and have enough magma extruded from under it to cause it to collapse into the ocean?

The relatively new revelation that Supervolcanoes exist and have erupted in the past should cause the curious, the truly scientific minds, to re-examine Plato as a historian in addition to a philosopher. This especially true because his descriptions of the topography of Atlantis correspond with modern geological descriptions of how the Earth works. Plato did not know this, so how could it be made up?

With the discovery of a Supervolcano near Vesuvius, These volcanoes are not rare. But people still build castles and cities on top of the 'plugs' in their vents...

http://volcanocafe.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/italien-ischia-castello-aragonese.png

What a gorgeous castle. Just like the main castle Plato described...

http://web.archive.org/web/20131021184156/http://volcanocafe.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/castello-arragonese.jpg?w=700

J. Garner PhD. aka RAYLEIGH22

A hypothesis without an explanation to account for the rise and fall of a large piece of the floor of the Atlantic ocean seems incomplete. Indeed, it is incomplete. Therefore, to simplify matters, I should explain possible mechanisms to accomplish the seeming insurmountable task of accomplishing the raising (or, rather the sinking) of the entire plateau in the area of the Azores islands.

The most simple, uncomplicated explanation without specifics I will call (Supervolcano plume hydraulics) or simple hydraulics. The specifics that describe the variations of magma present in the volcanoes of the Azores area may be found by reviewing the following piece of research.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agale/papers/galeetal_2013.pdf

"Constraints on melting processes and plume-ridge interaction from comprehensive study of the FAMOUS and North Famous segments, Mid-Atlantic Ridge." A. Gale, M. Laubier, S. Escrig, C.H. Langmuir Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Harvard University, 20 Oxford Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA. 

A brief review of this research, especially fig.10, illustrates how the magma from the mantle plume flows under the lithosphere and along this flow causes melt. The resulting mix of the magma which is part from the mantle plume, part magma from the Mid-Atlantic ridge and part from the melting of the underside of the lithosphere supports the plateau. An eruption of all of the volcanoes along the borders of this plate segment would be like letting the pressure off of a simple hydraulic cylinder. As a result, the lithosphere sinks. When the eruptions subside the lithosphere is at a lower level. This would also account for all of the variations in magma from the various volcanoes and why a flow from the Mid-Atlantic ridge is seemingly reversed, as is mentioned in several research papers.

It would also account for the ocean being un-navigatable for some number of years from the pumice that would be floating on top of the water after the sinking of Atlantis, aka, the Azores plateau as Plato described.

Therefore, looking for the age of this crust of the segment of the lithosphere would show the original time the section of the lithosphere was formed, but would show little evidence of it sinking under the ocean. The remnants of river beds and so forth as described would indicate the approximate age of those features, but not how it came to be the present ocean floor or even how long it has been in its present position. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

The volcanoes of the island of São Miguel in the Azores

The island of São Miguel in the Azores has three active central volcanoes. These are Sete Cidades, Fogo, and Furnas. Furnas does not have a cone but rather a steep-sided caldera approximately 8 km X 5 km across. The activity of Furmas is Plinian and it has a history of at least two significant eruptions in the time frame told by Plato’s description of Atlantis that resulted in caldera collapse and refilling. The first was 30,000 yrs BP and the second was 10,000 to 12,000 years BP. More recent eruptions have occurred, the first 1630 AD and new evidence suggests that another occurred during the human occupation of the Azores at about 1440 AD. [13]

63.134.169.153 (discuss) 02:05, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

An Examination of an Unexplored "European" Volcano"

Recently, I ran across an interesting discussion Of Monaco Bank, an Unexplored European Volcano on a web site called Volcano Cafe.

It is certainly worth a look and through a couple of research publications the caldera underneath the Azores begins to be revealed. As research reveals the shape, depth and extent of the Mantle Plume fed caldera, we also see that the flow of magma is contributed to by continental drift. Apparently, the mixing of the two magma sources, one from the plume and the other from continental plate interactions, analysis of the isotopes of helium from each source reveals the source of the magma, i.e. mantle plume or continental plate interaction.

https://volcanocafe.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/monaco-bank-an-unstudied-european-volcano/ RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Seewarte Seamounts[edit]

Seewarte Seamounts are a cluster of seamounts in the Northern Atlantic that include Plato, and Atlantis Seamounts, understood to be just named after the legend.

Predicting the Eruption of Undersea Volcanoes

Turns out that geologists have not been able to accurately predict the eruption of volcanoes on land. However, recently, a group of scientists exploring a volcano off the west coast of America wrote a paper that accurately predicted the eruption of a Seamount volcano. This volcano rises 2000 feet from the floor of the Pacific off the west coast of America.

They left monitoring equipment on the ocean floor. When they went to recover the equipment they discovered that the sea floor had changed. Later, they determined that there had been a significant eruption of this undersea volcano that had changed the sea floor. The curious thing is that nobody had noticed that there had been an eruption.

Their prediction that the Seamount volcano would erupt in 2014 turned out to be accurate. Now they are searching for ways of applying their prediction techniques to land based volcanoes[14].

Islands in the Azores That Have Sank and Then Re-appeared[edit]

The geologic record reveals that although Santa Maria is the oldest island in the Azores being formed some 7 million years ago, it sank into the ocean. Later, it rose back up above the ocean’s surface. The fact that it has ocean fossils present in it’s rocky surface attests to the fact that in the Azores, islands sink into the ocean and then rise again.

Source http://assets.geoexpro.com/legacy-files/articles/GEOTourism%20The%20Azores.pdf RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Islands in the Azores That Have Risen Above the Surface of the Ocean and Then Have Sank Again[edit]

Near Sao Miguel island an island rose from under the ocean in 1811. The British claimed the island and named it Sabrina. Shortly after the island was claimed by the British, it sank back into the ocean and it has not been seen since.

Source http://assets.geoexpro.com/legacy-files/articles/GEOTourism%20The%20Azores.pdf RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:51, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Discussion Regarding the appearance and disappearance of the island Sabrina continues[edit]

Some researchers make the hypothesis that the island rising and sinking was due to landslide activity.[15]

Others counter that the island did indeed rise and sink due to volcanic activity.[16]

Conversation about Yellowstone Park USA with Jake Lowenstern

Yellowstone – Jacob Lowenstern

http://www.wbur.org/npr/16150044/remnants-of-yellowstone-supervolcano-still-active

Timeus Correlations[edit]

As described by Plato in these dialogues Solon visited the old priesthood in Egypt. He was told clearly of the lands within the Pillars of Hercules and the lands outside of the Pillars of Hercules.

The Priest also made the statement that the Sea or Atlantic ocean outside of the Pillars of Hercules were no longer navigable.

I ask the reader to consider the land of Atlantis as a plateau, a huge cone of a Supervolcano. It was and is (because it is still there, it is just under water) still a caldera on the conjunction of 3 tectonic plates, whose top is a plug. Under this is the Mantle plume feeding caldera, the magma produced by the melt of the rock grinding and being fed into the caldera, and a fractured piece of rock not unlike a wormian bone formation in the sutures of a human skull. Look at the "Azores Microplate" in the diagram/map at this website/article.

http://assets.geoexpro.com/legacy-files/articles/GEOTourism%20The%20Azores.pdf

Description of an underwater super volcanic eruption[edit]

If the supervolcano erupts the underwater volcanoes go into a Plinian eruption underwater and eventually connecting to form a ring around the plateau or microplate. This is similar to the eruption described in Yellowstone Park in the USA. However, here, the plateau sinks under the water rather into a valley. The resultant steam, clouds and evaporated water rising from the ocean goes into the clouds creating the large deluge that moves toward Europe and the Mediterranean and on into Russia and Asia and powers the oral flood traditions of many diverse cultures of the world. Moreover, there are no superheated pyroclastic flows, only floating pumice is left. There is a HUGE pumice plug floating in the ocean in the area making it non-navigable for the sailing vessels of that time for maybe 1000 or more years, as described to Solon by the Egyptian Priest. As the pumice distributes itself throughout the Atlantic by wave action, there is little geologic record left for us 12-14,000 years after the fact in the form of sediment on the ocean floor to indicate that this supervolcanic eruption actually occurred. The dusting of pumice that exists on the floor of the Atlantic is claimed to be from Icelandic eruptions.

Research Data that supports an underwater volcanic super eruption[edit]

The SE Terceira Rift alone contains 252 submarine volcanic cones. (Seamounts) These cones all demonstrate the characteristics of Plinian (explosive) eruption. These cones exist up to 3200 meters below the ocean surface. The average diameter of these cones is 732 meters. The heights of these cones vary between 200 meters for the highest to a minimum of 50 meters. The volcanoes developed simultaneously according to High-resolution multichannel seismic data[17]. This data supports the hypothesis description of a supervolcanic eruption and the sinking of Atlantis.

Since earthquakes, landslides, flooding of the plateau and resultant multiple tsunamis would be indescribably catastrophic, NO ARCHAEOLOGICAL dig could reveal Atlantis, either the continent or the city. It is now a mile deep on a plateau resting on the ocean floor that is about 3 to 4 miles further down with the supervolcanic caldera down even further than that. The magma moving in this caldera is recorded as earthquake swarms in the area of the Azores and may be seen on the website today. ------>http://www.cvarg.azores.gov.pt/seismic/index.html

If you wish to see the Azorean Plateau or get an idea how big it is go back the the website above that shows the earthquake activity. Now using your mouse click on the "-" and back the view out making the islands smaller and the perspective of the north Atlantic more complete. You can see the Azores Plateau and the Mid Atlantic Rift (MAR) now. There is a triangular seafloor plateau with three known sea floor fault lines on its borders. The MAR runs from North East to South West and is part of this triangular border. I am seeking permission to use a more detailed bathymetric map of the Azores and the North Atlantic Basin Area. Click here reference #1. or here reference #2. to get an idea of what the sea floor looks like in the area of the Azores. (the maps must be approved first before the references can be used.)

The gulf stream no longer diverted by the land mass starts to change the climate on both sides of the Atlantic and the world climate changes, some parts fast and some parts slowly. Meanwhile, you still have the Mid-Atlantic Ridge grinding out ocean floor and the ridge is moving East and the hot spot with the mantle plume and caldera is migrating West and slowly changing into what we see today.

Don't hunt for Atlantis. You will never find it now. It exists only in Plato's writings (and the Egyptian Priest's, should his writings ever be revealed) and the oral tradition of the folklore of mankind. If the hypothesis presented here is correct the chances of finding ruins on the Azores plateau is extremely small. The utter devastation would be so complete as to make it difficult to find one man-made block sitting atop another.

More about the ice bridge and the bog people in Florida 10-15,000 years old with European DNA. This is but another disaster in the long history of mankind on the planet Earth described as recurrent By the old Egyptian priest to Solon as told by Plato. (Not made-up, but as accurate as any oral tradition folklore can be written and recorded by an academic, aka Plato.)

Mass extinctions and climate change descriptions to follow.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs)

Explanation describing what happened to the magma extruded during the super eruption that sank the island of Atlantis[edit]

Deposits Along the Coast of France Left in the Late Quaternary Epoch

Deposits of 1.6 meters thickness described as occurring in the late Quaternary along the coastal region of France Pg. 161[18] are from the disintegration of the pumice from the undersea eruptions that caused the sinking of Atlantis. They are dated between 14,000 and 10,000 years before present, within the time period described by Plato as the time period of the sinking of Atlantis.63.134.186.84 (discuss) 19:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Abnormalities Exist That Makes Calderas Occurring along the Atlantic Rift Different Than Those That Occur Under Continental Plates[19]

Research has revealed that along the Mid Atlantic Rift (MAR) that Mantle Plumes behave in a manner that causes them to 'flatten out' so to speak and to also consist of melt that comes from under the segments lithosphere beneath which they reside. I would hypothesize that this can reduce the forces that hold the lithosphere in place making the spread of lithosphere laterally from the MAR more rapid over time. This can explain why some volcanoes further from the MAR are younger in age than others nearer to the MAR. That is, some volcanoes closer to the MAR are older than those located further from the MAR. If this appears to be confusing to you read the research.[20][21]

Indeed, with the knowledge being gained the behavior of 'Mother Earth' around so-called RIFTING zones is becoming more and more a troubling problem to those who believe that they completely understand the behaviors of tectonic plates and the spreading of Rift Zones.

Results of the so-called Sinking of Atlantis

With the sinking (or sliding) of the Azores plateau the gulf stream current was no longer restricted and turned back south by the large island of Atlantis. This had three results. The first result was a gradual warming of the climate and the melting of the ice bridge from Europe to America as the warm gulf stream current bathed the areas to the north. The second was the pumice from the under ocean eruption gradually disintegrating and laying down here as well as throughout the Atlantic basin deposits of mud on the Atlantic shelf that is easy to find. The final result was the rising of the oceans of the world from the ice melting. This rising of the oceans is well documented in scientific literature. 63.134.186.84 (discuss) 19:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Western Mediterranean[edit]

Could the straits have been between Italy and Africa, instead of the straight of Gibraltar, thus making Atlantis location the western Mediterranean? If this were the case, Sardinia and Spain are candidates for Atlantis' location.

If Atlantis was a military power as Plato described these sites if they have ruins could be the remnants of colonies of Atlantis, too. The problem is that no written history is available or even history of these times. We must remember that 10,000 to 12,000 years ago much of northern Europe in addition to America was covered with glaciers.

The mass extinctions and the ocean rise around the world occurred at about this time.

On the other hand could the sinking of Atlantis have caused a rise in the ocean levels and submerged these areas of the Western Mediterranean Sea in the areas of Sardinia and Spain. It is well documented that seal levels rose and that the coasts in many areas of the world moved 50 to 100 miles inland.

If a 6 foot rise in sea level were to occur today the coasts of all areas of the world would change significantly. Practically the whole state of Florida in the United States would be underwater. The flooding of coastal areas throughout America would be devastating[22]. Much more devastation than merely Atlantis sinking happened in the world in the end of the last epoch. The record of the coast of Texas changing goes back 10,000 years[23].

Click here for a contemporary assessment of sea level rise. https://noaacsc.adobeconnect.com/_a1005979616/p3h5x2ubnkc/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 19:57, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Bimini[edit]

Atlantis' location from its use of natural energy sources:

  1. It has been conjectured and documented that the Ancient civilization of Atlantis had access to an energy source sovereign to their nation alone. A technology that produced energy for many uses. The secret of which was fiercely protected by the island nation. This technology was supposedly responsible for the nation being able to accomplish the supposed wonders that it did. These wonders may have included and were not limited to: increased industrial production such as ship building and materials processing; civilian welfare and general standard of living; food and agriculture processing/ sterilization/ storage/ and quality; waste treatment and processing etc.

The knowledge and ability to utilize this limitless energy source was the supposed catalyst of the nations power and ability to impress its rule upon other lands. If, assuming that the ancient rumors are true regarding Atlantis, then a conservative yet not impossible postulate would conclude that a geothermal source of energy was the most probable source. The ability and knowledge of the ancient nation to harness this power for uses untold is however, a topic for discussion. However, if accepted as gospel, that would limit the possible resting place of the ancient nation to locations where not just modest but *significant* geothermal activity and instability existed and may still exist today. Azores archipelago beyond the pillars of Hercules, and the area around Crete and the island of ancient Thera are prime candidates that would support this hypothesis.

Commentary[edit]

Is it not apparent that a catastrophe as described above might set civilization back thousands of years?

Evidence exists in the form of similarity of human DNA that the supervolcanic eruption at Toba in the Pacific was so large that it caused a volcanic winter and world-wide extinctions and starvation 70,000 years BC. This created what is called a "bottleneck" in human DNA where natural DNA mutations that may be confirmed using mathematical probability are not present. Thus, the species of Homo Sapien was reduced to very low numbers at that time.

Luckily, the supervolcanic eruption that is being alleged that destroyed Atlantis was not as devastating because the eruption occurred on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean instead of in the atmosphere. In an e-mail conversation with Jake Lowenstern of the USGS he told me unequivically that the Azores could not have had an eruption large enough to sink Atlantis because research has not yet found evidence of a VEI 8 or larger eruption in the Azores. They have found one of at least a VEI 5, though, the one that formed Mt. Pico. (This eruption was approximately the size of Pinatubo in the Philippines which was classified as a VEI 5)[24] It was not on the ocean floor. It was the volcano PICO and this eruption was dated about 14,000 years ago. (reference to follow soon)

What if this eruption that formed Mt. Pico occurred at the same time as the supervolcanic eruption on the ocean floor that sank Atlantis?

70,000 years ago in Sumatra, the volcano Toba blew its top in a scientifically accepted eruption of greater than a VEI 8 (VEI = Volcano Explositivity Index) officially 2.8 times larger than the eruption of the Yellowstone volcano 650,000 years ago [25] that is a termed a super volcano.

The proof is not only in the geological record, but the near extinction event evidence is present in the mitochondrial DNA of every human living in the world today. Statistically, (...and we cannot say that statistics is NOT evidence. Not even Einstein could refute statistics and mathematical probability when faced with Quantum Mechanics...) science has narrowed the breeding pairs of humans at this time 70,000 years ago to be no larger than 1,000 to 10, 000. This is being called the genetic bottleneck theory and it is based upon mitochondrial DNA.[26]

So how can we say that civilization did not exist before approximately 6,000 years ago? How can one claim to know this when human DNA has revealed that catastrophe has had a significant part in shaping mankind? Evidence in the archaeological record tells us that our species, Homo Sapiens, existed 164,000 yrs. before present time.[27]

Clearly, even though we have Satorini and the downfall of civilizations none of them date to the times that Plato described. Even the fact that some are attempting to say Atlantis was Satorini implies tacit acceptance of Plato's story, albeit on their own terms that facilitates their own best interests.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 03:14, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

See also[edit]

References[edit]

  1. http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1845/2055#sec-11
  2. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2007GC001725/full
  3. http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page9.htm
  4. https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=116706
  5. Atlantis, History Channel, http://www.history.com/topics/atlantis 
  6. http://ocean.si.edu/ocean-videos/submarine-volcanoes-erupting
  7. http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1845/2055
  8. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agale/papers/galeetal_2013.pdf
  9. Wikipedia: Plinian eruption#Ultra Plinian
  10. 10.0 10.1 10.2 10.3 Changing Sea Level and the Evolution of the Coastal Environment, http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/coast/prehistory/images/sea-level.html 
  11. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0377027313000887
  12. http://www.wbur.org/npr/16150044/remnants-of-yellowstone-supervolcano-still-active
  13. J.E. Guest, J.L. Gaspar, P.D. Cole, G.Queiroz, A.M. Duncan, N. Wallenstein, T.Ferreira, J.M.R.Pacheco Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research (Impact Factor: 2.54). 09/1999; 92(1):1-29. DOI: 10.1016/S0377-0273(99)00064-5
  14. http://tv.ibtimes.com/underwater-volcano-eruption-discovered-scientist-prove-prediction-correct-1413
  15. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0377027315002152
  16. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0377027315002644
  17. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037702731500236X
  18. Shelf Sand and Sandstone Bodies: Geometry, Facies and Sequence Stratigraphy (Special Publication 14 of the IAS) Volume 32 of International Association Of Sedimentologists Series, Editor: D. Swift, Publisher: John Wiley & Sons, 2009, ISBN 1444303945, 9781444303940, Length 328 pages
  19. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222552237_Rayleigh_wave_tomography_in_the_North_Atlantic_High_resolution_images_of_the_Iceland_Azores_and_Eifel_mantle_plumes
  20. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/222552237_Rayleigh_wave_tomography_in_the_North_Atlantic_High_resolution_images_of_the_Iceland_Azores_and_Eifel_mantle_plumes
  21. Treatise on Geophysics
  22. http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/coast/prehistory/images/sea-level.html
  23. http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/coast/prehistory/images/intro.html
  24. https://www.google.com/search?q=toba+vei+8&sa=X&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&imgil=jSXrOJ_aPYfFQM%253A%253BvTqqn8TTTiScUM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fktwop.com%25252F2015%25252F04%25252F16%25252Fprobability-of-a-vei-5-volcanic-eruption-within-5-years-is-over-90%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=jSXrOJ_aPYfFQM%253A%252CvTqqn8TTTiScUM%252C_&dpr=1&usg=__SQZp7Kc2MOPP-nD6aC-aCpgLwFY%3D&ved=0ahUKEwikov3l2L3JAhXHKh4KHbnjAhcQyjcIQw&ei=WilfVqSNF8fVeLnHi7gB#imgrc=jSXrOJ_aPYfFQM%3A&usg=__SQZp7Kc2MOPP-nD6aC-aCpgLwFY%3D
  25. https://www.google.com/search?q=toba+vei+8&sa=X&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&imgil=jSXrOJ_aPYfFQM%253A%253BvTqqn8TTTiScUM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fktwop.com%25252F2015%25252F04%25252F16%25252Fprobability-of-a-vei-5-volcanic-eruption-within-5-years-is-over-90%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=jSXrOJ_aPYfFQM%253A%252CvTqqn8TTTiScUM%252C_&dpr=1&usg=__SQZp7Kc2MOPP-nD6aC-aCpgLwFY%3D&ved=0ahUKEwikov3l2L3JAhXHKh4KHbnjAhcQyjcIQw&ei=WilfVqSNF8fVeLnHi7gB#imgrc=jSXrOJ_aPYfFQM%3A&usg=__SQZp7Kc2MOPP-nD6aC-aCpgLwFY%3D
  26. Wikipedia: Toba catastrophe theory
  27. http://www.washington.edu/news/2007/10/18/earliest-evidence-for-modern-human-behavior-found-in-south-african-cave-2/