Wikiversity:Meetings/Learning on Wikiversity/07June2008/log
This is a log of an IRC meeting on 7th June, 2008 to discuss learning on Wikiversity.
experiences at the Bloom Clock project 
[7:05pm] SB_Johnny: ok, can we start?
[7:05pm] cormaggio: so, last meeting summary at: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Meetings/Learning_on_Wikiversity
[7:05pm] lajla: <comments deleted>
[7:05pm] cormaggio: ok :-)
[7:06pm] SB_Johnny: cormaggio said I can have the floor, so I wanted to start with some insights on how to get momentum behind a learning effort
[7:06pm] cormaggio: so SB_Johnny - do you want to raise issues about the Bloom Clock ?
[7:06pm] SB_Johnny: well, not per se
[7:06pm] cormaggio: ok - momentum - this could be interesting
[7:07pm] SB_Johnny: but as background, I'll say that the BC has really been taking off over the past couple months, and not only am I proud of the result, but I'm proud that other people are just as proud as me :)
[7:07pm] cormaggio: just to remind everyone: the purpose of these meetings is to discuss 'learning in Wikiversity' - what it means, how it's done, problems encountered, action-steps proposed
[7:08pm] SB_Johnny: but thar's the rub. it took 2 years of (often lonely) effort to get it really rolling
[7:08pm] cormaggio: yep - the Bloom Clock is a great example of a collaborative effort - I'm just sorry i haven't been contributing this spring/summer :-(
[7:08pm] SB_Johnny: unlike a lot of you, my "roots" are as a Wikibookian, not a Wikipedian
[7:09pm] SB_Johnny: well, it wasn't a collaboration at first, that's the point
[7:09pm] SB_Johnny: I worked on it alone for about a year before any serious new contributors arrived
[7:10pm] cormaggio: so, did contributors just "arrive", or did you solicit them elsewhere?
[7:10pm] SB_Johnny: and i guess that's all I really want to say about that: if you're expecting to be working in a wikipedia-like atmosphere (where random people just stop in and edit), you're going to be a bit sad
[7:11pm] SB_Johnny: but if you are just concentrating on improving the content, eventually people will be attracted to it
[7:11pm] cormaggio: a theme of Wikiversity participation has been playing the waiting game..
[7:12pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: word of mouth popaganda also could play a role - it just takes some time to find the right people
[7:12pm] SB_Johnny: no, I think the only person I solicited is Jomegat, but I know him and knew he would like it :)
[7:12pm] SB_Johnny: yes, exactly
[7:12pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: from de.WV there is now also a person who participates at BCP and also uses some ideas from it at de.WV
[7:12pm] SB_Johnny: waiting game
[7:12pm] cormaggio: cf. Juan's posting of Daan's comment: "On Wikiversity, there are too many startups of only one person who is waiting for others to join."
[7:13pm] SB_Johnny: but also using our status as a wikimedia project
[7:13pm] SB_Johnny: try googling "bloom clock", for example :)
[7:13pm] • Erkan_Yilmaz tries
[7:13pm] cormaggio: Erkan - how is this person using BC's ideas in de.wv?
[7:14pm] SB_Johnny: cormaggio: that's the issue... you can't waste time *waiting*
[7:14pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: he was new at de.WV and started some pages, but missed participation for his idea (he studied geoecology)
[7:14pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: I gave him a link to SB_Johnny's BCP
[7:14pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and he was fascinated
[7:14pm] cormaggio: 1st hit on Google - I'm impressed Johnny :-)
[7:14pm] SB_Johnny: heh
[7:15pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and now he is still busy with "his" project at de.WV - implementing technical ideas: e.g. asks about bots and how to implement GPRS positions
[7:15pm] SB_Johnny: well, we're the first hit on google because of the number of uses of w:Template:Wikiversity-bc
[7:15pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Wikiversity-bc
[7:15pm] cormaggio: right
[7:15pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and what that guy does also is: using e.g. this request to identify idea
[7:15pm] SB_Johnny: that template will hopefully start reflecting bloom seasons this winter
[7:16pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: he does it for soil not plants
[7:16pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: err: identify idea -> identify soil
[7:16pm] SB_Johnny: thus allowing wikipedia to have a global language for bloom time without needing to engage in "OR"
[7:16pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: that is the page: de:Projekt:Atlas der Blütenpflanzen incompatible encoding
[7:16pm] wikiversilinky3: http://de.wikiversity.org/wiki/Projekt:Atlas_der_Bl%EF%BF%BDtenpflanzen
[7:16pm] SB_Johnny: huh
[7:16pm] cormaggio: but here's a rub for you Johnny - you are very knowledgeable on plants - by your example, people need to be knowledgeable to get the content to a stage where others will be interested.... for discussion...
[7:17pm] SB_Johnny: can he negotiate in English?
[7:17pm] SB_Johnny: cormaggio: yes, I think you need a teacher first
[7:18pm] SB_Johnny: but the BC is at the point now where anyone with eyes can participate
[7:18pm] cormaggio: right - I've always been interested in whether people can explore learning paths, and develop learning communities, from a very "naive" stance (for want of a better word)
[7:18pm] SB_Johnny: (eyes and a computer and internet access, I mean)
[7:18pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: so how about when a disabled/blind person wanna join ? but I guess most of WV's content is not good for disabled :-)
[7:18pm] SB_Johnny: I think that's more difficult
[7:19pm] cormaggio: well, I don't mean to take the rug from your feet SB_Johnny :-) - I just want to widen the discussion..
[7:19pm] SB_Johnny: well Erkan, the BC's keys are pretty much useless to people without broadband as well
[7:19pm] SB_Johnny: ok, I'm done my spiel anyway :)
[7:19pm] cormaggio: I still think we've a lot to learn from your own experiences - on your own terms..
[7:19pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: did you think to make it available in print form like e.g. wikibooks?
[7:20pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: some PDF for download
[7:20pm] SB_Johnny: yes, it's printable, more or less
[7:20pm] SB_Johnny: though I could make it more printable
[7:20pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: easy printable ? so I go somewhere click: print and then I get the actual pictures so far ?
[7:20pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: I mean: actual status of the project as pdf
[7:21pm] SB_Johnny: well, I printed one of the keys
[7:21pm] SB_Johnny: oh
[7:21pm] cormaggio: As a caveat - i think BCP could still be made more user-friendly...
[7:21pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: then e.g. someone could print and use while exploring nature
[7:21pm] SB_Johnny: well, maybe a printout could be generated for northern-hemisphere people in January, southern-hemisphere people in July...
[7:22pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: yes
[7:22pm] SB_Johnny: yeah, BCP needs a lot more instruction manuals, or perhaps just a few more instructors
[7:22pm] cormaggio: hmm, what format is the data printed in? could people get the data in different formats with a bit of tweaking on the back-end?
[7:23pm] SB_Johnny: I've been trying to write some lately... it's pretty clear that I can't be the "professor" any more due to the ever-growing number of participants
[7:23pm] cormaggio: SB_Johnny - I think i could probably be of more use to you as a user-friendly helper than a data logger..
[7:23pm] • SB_Johnny wonders why we're talking about print versions... I thought that was more a Wikibooks thing
[7:24pm] atglenn joined the chat room.
[7:24pm] atglenn: late again as usual
[7:24pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: :-) well when someone is in nature, the power of the laptop runs out, or the person has no laptop to take with, ...
[7:24pm] cormaggio: I was just thinking about data from a general angle - to make it more reusable, etc
[7:24pm] cormaggio: hi atglenn - welcome :-)
[7:24pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: just doing it on pc without seeing the plant is a little less satisfying or ?
[7:25pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: hi atglenn
[7:25pm] cormaggio: well, when "in nature", take your camera.. :-)
[7:25pm] SB_Johnny: well, it would be cool if we had an "iPhone" version
[7:26pm] SB_Johnny: but you'd need to talk to darkcode about that one :)
[7:26pm] cormaggio: mmm, these kinds of things would be *very* cool...
[7:26pm] cormaggio: anyway - I think we're straying slightly...
[7:27pm] cormaggio: (though it's great to be thinking along these lines)
[7:28pm] SB_Johnny: I'll have to get back to #real-life work soon, but I did want to assure people that "if you build it, they will come"
[7:28pm] SB_Johnny: it just might just take a year or so for them to come, that's all
[7:28pm] cormaggio: right - i was trying to put it succinctly - thanks :-)
[7:29pm] Texou joined the chat room.
[7:29pm] • SB_Johnny suspects (non-american) cormaggio might have missed the (very american) reference, but it still works :)
[7:29pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: hi Texou
Is building a thing enough, or do we need more than the thing? 
[7:29pm] cormaggio: I'd like to pose a problem for that - is building a thing enough, or do we need more than the thing?
[7:30pm] SB_Johnny: eh?
[7:30pm] cormaggio: ..what I'm referring to is some sort of means of participating in your space
[7:30pm] SB_Johnny: ah
[7:30pm] cormaggio: what concerns me is that many of the spaces on Wikiversity don't have a clear means for participating - why should I do it, what will i get out of it, how will I learn..?
[7:31pm] SB_Johnny: well, I promise to leave soon, but here's my "evolution story"
[7:31pm] cormaggio: ok..
[7:31pm] SB_Johnny: first, I made it work for what *I* wanted to do
[7:31pm] Texou: hi :D
[7:31pm] cormaggio: hi texou
[7:31pm] atglenn: if we build what? (when you get a chance) is there a thing that needs to exist before people participate?
[7:32pm] SB_Johnny: second, I tried to adjust it so other people could use it (e.g., other people who don't actually live in my head)
[7:32pm] cormaggio: atglenn - we're discussing the Bloom Clock (sorry)
[7:32pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Bloom_Clock
[7:32pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: what must exist before participation:
[7:32pm] SB_Johnny: third, I tried to attract contributors using interwiki templates and such
[7:32pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: incompatible encoding
[7:32pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders.
[7:32pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.
[7:33pm] SB_Johnny: and now I just participate, and try to explain steps one and 2 :)
[7:33pm] cormaggio: :-) thanks SB_johnny
[7:34pm] SB_Johnny: oh and steps 1a, 2a, and 3a were asking for help. Mostly darkcode (but a few others) were invaluable
[7:34pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: so SB_Johnny every of these 3 steps cost lots of time for you
[7:34pm] SB_Johnny: that's important
[7:34pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: but I guess you also gained lots of each 3 steps ?
[7:34pm] SB_Johnny: yes, Erkan :)
[7:34pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: step1: realizing your dream
[7:35pm] SB_Johnny: well, yes
[7:35pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: step2: learning technical details/methods
[7:35pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: step3: learning by teaching others
[7:35pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: like this ?
[7:35pm] SB_Johnny: not just the dream... I actually edited a very complicated template on Wikipedia today... that makes me happy too :)
[7:35pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: :-)
[7:36pm] cormaggio: but this had a clear model for participating from the start...
[7:36pm] cormaggio: right?
[7:36pm] SB_Johnny: ok, I need to get the swimming hole ready for company later... will stop in
[7:36pm] SB_Johnny: yes, it was always supposed to be participatory
[7:37pm] cormaggio: ok SBJ - thanks
[7:37pm] SB_Johnny: a research project requiring only eyeballs and keyboards... digital camera helpful but not required :)
[7:37pm] SB_Johnny: cu
[7:37pm] cormaggio: (though I wasn't talking about "participatory" - I was more talking about a *model* for participation..)
[7:38pm] cormaggio: and I think it's a model we could use (ie other clocks)
[7:38pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: bye SB_Johnny
[7:39pm] cormaggio: I gave the example before about "what did I eat today?" clock - could be interesting data around diet, demographics...
[7:39pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: you mean like posting private data ?
[7:40pm] cormaggio: well, if you're posting, it's not private..
[7:40pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: people could then from that derive other things about the person - though if it is under a nick, it is less backtracable
[7:40pm] cormaggio: well, ok, it would be more complex - it was just another example of a different kind of clock
[7:40pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: no, it is good
[7:40pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: I didn't say otherwise
[7:41pm] cormaggio: yes :-)
[7:41pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: because WV gives the space and opportunity to create individual "services"
[7:41pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: adapt to the individual than otherwise
[7:41pm] cormaggio: I'm interested in applying a model from one course/resource/space in WV, and applying it to another..
[7:42pm] cormaggio: I think the reading groups is another good example of a model
[7:42pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well that would need to analyze the different projects first
[7:42pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and then identify common steps
[7:42pm] cormaggio: I think we've yet to describe our various models - though i know McCormack is making a start on this
[7:43pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: we could talk about the reading group: Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War ?
[7:43pm] cormaggio: and I particularly feel JWS's model of learning by doing needs to be better explained/understood..
[7:43pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Thucydides:_The_Peloponnesian_War
[7:43pm] cormaggio: ok Erkan :-)
[7:43pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: later, just let your ideas out :-)
[7:43pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: another question: who is still with us in this meeting ?
[7:44pm] cormaggio: no, that was it (on that theme)
[7:44pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: atglenn ?
[7:44pm] atglenn: hello
[7:44pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: hi :-)
[7:44pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: anyone else still watching ?
[7:45pm] cormaggio: Erkan - what have you learned about that reading group - as a model, process..?
[7:46pm] cormaggio: (other comments on resources' models would also be appreciated)
[7:47pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: before we start: there is also e.g. Composing free and open online educational resources or projects from schools/universities
[7:47pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Composing_free_and_open_online_educational_resources
[7:47pm] cormaggio: I created Building successful learning communities on Wikiversity to collate examples of resources we could learn from...
[7:47pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Building_successful_learning_communities_on_Wikiversity
[7:47pm] • Erkan_Yilmaz looks
[7:48pm] cormaggio: no, later please - it's a resource which we can develop after the meeting
[7:48pm] cormaggio: it has never taken off
[7:49pm] cormaggio: Erkan? You seem to be playing the waiting game.. :-)
[7:49pm] guillom left the chat room. (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
[7:50pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: ah no, was reading something
[7:50pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well model or not, I think a project needs a dedicated person to push it
[7:50pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: someone who takes care of others, helps them
[7:50pm] cormaggio: ok
[7:51pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and about the goodness of a model: you need also feedback which is not always guaranteed
How are we facilitating their learning? 
[7:51pm] cormaggio: so i'll throw out my problem from earlier about someone who doesn't know much about something - how are we facilitating their learning?
[7:52pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: here I had in mind: why are we MAINLY responsible for someone's learning ? whatever learning means
[7:52pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: learning takes place at every moment
[7:52pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: also about the questions you posed earlier: "why should I do it, what will i get out of it, how will I learn..?"
[7:53pm] cormaggio: some people's (yourself included Erkan!) attitude to questions about a subject on Wikiversity is: "start a learning project on it"
[7:53pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: "why should I do it, what will i get out of it" - if someone thinks like this I am not sure if he really wanna ?
[7:54pm] cormaggio: hmmm, but surely there are many opportunities to learn - if we can't provide a rationale that here is a good place, they will logically go elsewhere..
[7:54pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: what I mean is: people should fight for their own learning - no one else will do this for them
[7:54pm] cormaggio: I think this is a great step - when people start to fight for their learning - taking it into their own hands...
[7:54pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: what means "good place" ?
[7:55pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: that brings us probably to the NPOV ?
[7:55pm] cormaggio: ...but i am concerned with how casual we have been with suggesting that people "just click the edit button"
[7:55pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: (from last meeting)
[7:56pm] cormaggio: by "good place", I mean a place where the learner thinks they can get something out of it
[7:56pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well one thing: someone can also let's say learn at home, and probably when she goes online, she is searching for someone else/participation
[7:57pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: probably one of WVs task should be to bring together interested persons for discussing
[7:57pm] cormaggio: yes, right
[7:57pm] atglenn: you can learn at home in isolation or you can learn with others. presumably one reason to go elsewhere is to interact with other learners
[7:57pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: there was this idea at the Visioon page or Technical needs to make more with tags
[7:58pm] atglenn: but sometimes when you go on line it's just because you don't have the textbooks at home on your shelf
[7:58pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: about "just click the edit button": this can create hot discussions :-)
[7:58pm] cormaggio: yes, technical tools to help people find co-learners could really help..
[7:58pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: atglenn: yup
[7:59pm] cormaggio: well, I'm all for a hot discussion :-)
[7:59pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well: how about this one then: Did you ever edit another user page than "yours" ? - I guess you meant with edit button non-userpages
[7:59pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Did_you_ever_edit_another_user_page_than_%22yours%22_%3F
[8:00pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: we can talk about this late, because it requires reading all
[8:01pm] cormaggio: I don't think we're talking about the same topic, Erkan
[8:01pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: could be :-)
[8:01pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: but the normal editor at WV still probably sees things as "his" work
[8:01pm] cormaggio: what I'm referring to is the suggestion that "clicking the edit button' will automatically improve someone's learning
[8:01pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: agreed, though learning improvement already starts when reading
[8:02pm] cormaggio: can I also ask what you meant a little earlier: "why are we MAINLY responsible for someone's learning ?"
[8:02pm] cormaggio: what were you asking here? what do you mean?
[8:03pm] cormaggio: hmmm, ok, the subject of "my" work is also a significant theme on WV, from what I've seen...
[8:03pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: "why are we MAINLY responsible for someone's learning ?": the main responsibility for that - but also other things - is mainly the individual: it is no cocaigne: you must do some effort also
[8:03pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: people should not come here and expect: ok, WV offers already 100% finished learning ressources
[8:04pm] cormaggio: "cocaigne"?
[8:04pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: I just have to read be passive to have success
[8:04pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: they must show initiative, do actions to be successful in their learning
[8:05pm] cormaggio: ok, but aren't we making assumptions about the learner then?
[8:05pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: we are always making assumptions Cormac, because we have in wiki less info - it is not face to face
[8:06pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: to not make assumptions requires the other person to give private info
[8:06pm] cormaggio: no, I'm talking about an assumption that the learner will fit a certain profile *in order to make wikiversity useful*
[8:06pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and that people are not willing to do
[8:06pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: learning is individual, therefore I say: it is not our main responsibility and the learner must be active herself
[8:06pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: how should we without feedback know if a "model" works ?
[8:07pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: this requires time
[8:07pm] cormaggio: this is true
[8:07pm] cormaggio: but we could at least tell a learning community is active by number and diversity of edits
[8:08pm] cormaggio: so far, there have been lamentably few examples, from what I've seen
[8:08pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well WV is not existing so long and people also have their own views about WV without knowing it
[8:08pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: when I look at the
[8:09pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: candidates from the Wikimedia Foundation's board election and their responses here:
[8:09pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: meta:Board elections/2008/Candidates/Questions/3#Wikiversity
[8:09pm] wikiversilinky3: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2008/Candidates/Questions/3#Wikiversity
[8:09pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: I am also wondering either we have failed to transmit our mission/ideas
[8:09pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: or they just are not interested
[8:10pm] cormaggio: ok, so if we're assuming the learner should be "active" in order to learn, should we be giving some guidance in this activity? how?
[8:11pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: guidance by ?
[8:11pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: writing a page ?
[8:11pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: or guidance by looking at the edits and giving individual comments `?
[8:11pm] cormaggio: well, both would work (and do)
[8:12pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: the most effective probably is the individual taking care of - mentoring someone - though here the question is someone able to mentor someone good enough by wiki means ?
[8:12pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: probably saying from time to time: good job, done great, continue like this
[8:13pm] cormaggio: sure
[8:14pm] cormaggio: so, I'm thinking we could have two types of resources for facilitating of the learning process..
[8:14pm] cormaggio: 1) a page (or group of pages) on how people can further their learning in a certain way
[8:15pm] cormaggio: 2) a page (or group of pages) about how to guide someone in their path of learning
[8:15pm] cormaggio: does anyone agree that these kinds of resources would be helpful?
[8:16pm] cormaggio: an example of the first kind might be informed by pages like Learning by doing or Collective learning
[8:16pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Learning_by_doing
[8:16pm] wikiversilinky3: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Collective_learning
[8:16pm] cormaggio: (thanks again atglenn!)
[8:17pm] • Erkan_Yilmaz must say he didn't yet read both pages much :-)
[8:18pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: there is so much to read on WV
[8:18pm] cormaggio: that's ok! I'm talking more about the ideas for a start
[8:18pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well to create both kind of pages is good, because it can be presented to newcomers
[8:18pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: since atm: the individual taking-care of cannot be assured for everyone
[8:19pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: so people can read for themselves and contribute their ideas/comments on it, which also is a form of learning/participating
[8:19pm] cormaggio: "so much to read" - is there a rationale for having a compact section of Wikiversity that people could refer to basic aspects of Wikiversity's work?
[8:20pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: compact section: well if you can convince a person in a few words right at begin that is better than presenting her with lots of text
[8:20pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: time is valuable (for any of us) :-)
[8:20pm] cormaggio: I agree with you there
[8:21pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well I guess we try this with the welcome msg
[8:22pm] cormaggio: I think a lot of ideas on WV could be presented in a more compact form, which could link to or continue into more detailed versions of the same theory/model/etc
[8:22pm] cormaggio: well, I think the welcome message is ok.... but how were you thinking of improving it?
[8:22pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: today I read again beta's way to foster cooperation between WVs: translating comments of everybody and making a short summary of that
[8:22pm] • Erkan_Yilmaz looks the page up
[8:23pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Multilingualism/En
[8:24pm] guillom joined the chat room.
[8:24pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: welcome msg, well used wiki editors just see the welcome msg as a non-personal thing, they probably want a human writing something specific for them ?
[8:24pm] cormaggio: hmm, interesting - how are you suggesting we apply this in en?
[8:25pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: Multilangualism: that was in reference to make it shorter
[8:25pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: it is less effort for others when there exists a short summary
[8:26pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: but though then people do again assumptions, since less info is just less info
[8:26pm] cormaggio: well, kinda like the policy "in a nutshell" on wikipedia...
[8:26pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: but on the other hand: didn't Goethe once apologize to a fiend for writing a long letter ?
[8:26pm] cormaggio: I think we've all done that!
[8:27pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: fiend -> friend
[8:27pm] cormaggio: ok, how were you suggesting we modify the welcome message again? I don't understand the human touch...
[8:28pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well the welcome msg is just: copy pasting a subst: people might thing: the welcome msg writer doesn't give much attention/time for me ?
[8:28pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: what could be done is: reading all edits so far of the person and react on their edits by a comment: interesting view or I am not sure did you consider ...
[8:29pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: so that the person needs to answer and that is the first form of interaction then
[8:29pm] cormaggio: ok, sure - it's more personal - but how does this relate to this discussion?
[8:29pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: that could stamp people
[8:29pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: they see that they are not alone in WV
[8:29pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: that is why they are coming from their homes to go online to see others
[8:30pm] McCormack joined the chat room.
[8:30pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: otherwise it takes longer until someone reacts on an edit on a page (atm)
[8:30pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: the feedback is not right in time then
[8:31pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: you could also say: vandals get more attention than "normal" contributors :-)
[8:31pm] cormaggio: yes, but I'm having a hard time relating this to what we were talking about when you raised this
[8:32pm] cormaggio: we were talking about developing resources that would help people learn, and help people facilitate learning, yes?
[8:32pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well how did we come here: by my comment "so much to read" on your idea with the 2 ressources to be created
[8:32pm] cormaggio: right - so how would the welcome message combat the fact of having so much to read?
[8:33pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well e.g. the welcome msg could not be only in text form
[8:33pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: there could be a video
[8:33pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: that provides more info - and could be more effective
[8:34pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and also would show how learning can also be done at WV
[8:34pm] cormaggio: ok sure - that's a type of resource that would be great to have
[8:34pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: e.g. the video could provide a voice of someone, which makes it again more personal, more senses get activated by the recipient
[8:35pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: people could see immediately how they can create learning resources
[8:35pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and then get the motivation: I also would like to create such a video
[8:35pm] cormaggio: but was this what you were meaning when you brought it up?
[8:35pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and then they come into the devil's circle that that takes knowledge and also to create an OGG only (the format only commons accepts)
[8:36pm] cormaggio: I just get the feeling that this discussion is hopping around too much
[8:36pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: my meaning with the welcome was at begin: to make something short and also individual
[8:36pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and the hopping around: because no one else is talking :-)
[8:37pm] cormaggio: well, surely it would hop more if more people were talking, but anyway..
[8:37pm] cormaggio: ..so you're suggesting that people would record an individual video message for each new contributor?
[8:37pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: no, that I couldnt do :-)
[8:37pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: that is too much effort
[8:38pm] cormaggio: ok, so: what were you suggesting? :-)
[8:38pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: I meant how they can in a short and fast way see how WV works
[8:38pm] cormaggio: sure - i agree wholeheartedly with having such a resource
[8:38pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and the individual part of it: including also comments on their recent edits so they see: someone is reading what they do here
[8:39pm] cormaggio: but Erkan - I don't see how this relates to what we were talking about - I'm sorry
[8:39pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: no need to be sorry
[8:39pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: just tell what you are intending to, since I cant read your mind
[8:40pm] cormaggio: what i'm trying to do is to help people find their way in Wikiversity - make it productive for them
[8:41pm] cormaggio: so the types of resources i outlined could be useful to the learner, and to the person guiding the learner
[8:41pm] cormaggio: and I think your suggestion to keep things compact is very useful here
[8:41pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well you could initiate steps which adresses to many learners or care for individual persons
[8:42pm] cormaggio: right - I agree
[8:43pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: the easier and less effort way is to create something for many learners but you don't get probably feedback then on what you have initiated or only on longer terms
[8:43pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: with individual taking care you get feedback and build from that your hypothesis
[8:43pm] cormaggio: though I'd want to take care that we don't artificially reinforce the learner/teacher distinction..
[8:43pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and then apply this to more people
[8:44pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: yes, from last time the discussion: that requires then sentences like: IF .. THEN
[8:44pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and that blows up the text again
[8:44pm] cormaggio: if anyone else is lurking here: any opinions on what we've been discussing?
[8:46pm] cormaggio: I have the feeling we should wrap up this meeting
[8:46pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well if no one else is lurking, we can also stop, it has been 105 mins :-)
action steps 
[8:46pm] cormaggio: but I'd like to define our action steps from this meeting
[8:48pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: like ?
[8:48pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: (21:13:26)<cormaggio>so, i'm thinking we could have two types of resources for facilitating of the learning process..
[8:48pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: (21:14:01)<cormaggio>1) a page (or group of pages) on how people can further their learning in a certain way
[8:48pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: (21:14:31)<cormaggio>2) a page (or group of pages) about how to guide someone in their path of learning
[8:48pm] cormaggio: sorry :-)
[8:48pm] cormaggio: yes, I was just pasting them in :-)
[8:48pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: hehe
[8:49pm] cormaggio: is this too vague?
[8:49pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well you can provide some examples of ressource which exist already, if they exist
[8:49pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: and another action step is:
[8:50pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: how to get next time more people in here :-)
[8:50pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: also getting feedback on teh 2 meetings in general would be good
[8:50pm] cormaggio: I'm a bit disappointed on feedback on meetings
[8:50pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: well it is like everything in wiki: it takes some time
[8:50pm] cormaggio: (ie people saying whether they'll come)
[8:51pm] cormaggio: yes, that's true
[8:51pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: people will read teh logs and probably this will start some actions/ideas
[8:51pm] cormaggio: well, that's what I'm hoping
[8:51pm] cormaggio: but i'm assuming nothing
[8:51pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: or w ejust have to include also some wild hypothesis in here :-)
[8:51pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: to cause hot reactions
[8:52pm] cormaggio: well, that's not necessarily the purpose either :-)
[8:52pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: :-)
[8:52pm] cormaggio: ok Erkan - I appreciate your patience and time
[8:52pm] cormaggio: thansk for coming - i think we can discuss these things further on-wiki
[8:52pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: same here too: you also took time to be here
[8:53pm] cormaggio: I'm still wondering where should be a good workspace to continue these ideas - but we can work that out after
[8:54pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: yes
[8:54pm] cormaggio: right - so - meeting over for now
[8:54pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: ok
[8:54pm] cormaggio: I think I need some dinner :-)
[8:54pm] Erkan_Yilmaz: bon appetit