User talk:Hapoth

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Hello and Welcome to Wikiversity Hapoth! You can contact us with questions at the colloquium or me personally when you need help. Please remember to sign and date your finished comments when participating in discussions. The signature icon Insert-signature.png above the edit window makes it simple. All users are expected to abide by our Privacy, Civility, and the Terms of Use policies while at Wikiversity.

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You do not need to be an educator to edit. You only need to be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage. See you around Wikiversity! --Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 12:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Scalar_theories_of_gravitation[edit]

Your contribution to Scalar_theories_of_gravitation contains a section on Poth's theory that requires more references, and a discussion is underway to delete it. Please join that discussion.--Guy vandegrift (discusscontribs) 05:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

It's unlikely that we will delete this page, but it should be moved. Essays may be written here that do not require references, but they are then to be attributed, see, as an example, the pages under Physics/Essays, which may or may not be referenced and shown to be notable. We do not require notability for work on Wikiversity. In order of the degree of control you will have over how your pages look, the above and Four potential gravitation, there are these options:
  • Move to your user space. User space pages may later be moved to mainspace if there is agreement. In User space, your control of the pages will be respected as long as content is not positively harmful. You could host nonsense in your user space if it looks remotely like something possibly educational, for you, even if for nobody else.
  • Move to Physics/Essays. This would allow links to your studies to exist in mainspace. We won't want that for user space pages, usually.
  • Move to subpages of Gravitation. If they are explicitly tagged as essays, your opinion, this can be done, but there will be an issue of notability, i.e., should this be linked from the Gravitation page? We can work that out. We want high consensus for whatever we do.
Now, I'm not competent to assess your math and physics without a lot of study, which I don't have time for. My goal is to empower you to express your ideas freely, and also for, if possible, those ideas to be discussed. We cannot force anyone to do the latter, you may find that it is difficult to get anyone to discuss what is thought of as fringe. But it is possible.
In theory, you could insist on your ideas being featured in mainspace. I would only recommend you do this if there is reasonably solid support for them in the mainstream physics community. If they are unusual, fringe (which does not mean "wrong"), then I'd suggest simply accepting that for now. We would want to organize these resources anyway, we want mainspace pages to cover larger topics, and details, such as might be a single lecture in a course, to be on subpages.
Thank you for contributing to Wikiversity. We want you to know that your work will be respected here, fringe or not. That is, we will not delete it merely because someone thinks it is fringe or even wrong. Hopefully, you can engage in discussion such a person.
It has been suggested that you publish your ideas in a peer-reviewed journal. That's a great idea, if you can get the papers accepted. I was just published under peer review, in a mainstream journal, in a field that has been highly controversial, and it was not necessarily easy. I had to respect the reviewer and his initially very negative response. I had to take that response as due to my failure to communicate, not to his stupidity or ignorance -- though he was, in fact, ignorant on the topic, no surprise -- and so I revised the article. He was amazed, and apparently changed his mind. Good luck. --Abd (discusscontribs) 23:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Four potential theory of gravitation[edit]

Your contribution of Four potential gravitation has been moved to User:Hapoth/Four potential gravitation due to concerns that it may not be mainstream science, and as such, would not be a top-level article at Wikiversity. There are several Physics and Gravitation research / essay learning projects that would welcome this content if you would like to move it there instead. Please let us know if you need assistance in moving the content or if you have any questions. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 15:39, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Hapoth: I know a little about general relativity, but would appreciate an explanation intended for a non-specialist like me. When research is being resented, it is common to place the ideas in the author's userspace so that others may comment. --Guy vandegrift (discusscontribs) 20:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

From Hartwig Poth to Guy Vandegrift: I am going to send you by email short introductions to scalar and four gravitation in the form of pdf and the corresponding latex txt files without format instructions. You can insert them somwhere for example here in wikiversity, it is too tedious for me to transform that into the wikiversity format. Please don't expect from me in the future so quick reactions. Please wait until you have got my 'books'.--87.142.233.43 (discuss) 17:51, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Hartwig, I see that you have added content to User:Hapoth here that mostly duplicates the content at User:Hapoth/Four potential gravitation. That is not the normal usage of your User page, which should be about you, though it may also contain links to pages you have created, such as the user subpage that is the article as moved from mainspace.
  • You should know that you may edit the user pages as you see fit. You may, for example, remove the Fringe tag, that is not needed in user space. If you are ready to move this back to mainspace, understanding where it should be placed, ask. You may ask here, I'm watching this user talk page.
  • I also see that you have commented on Wikiversity activity on your blog. Copying that here:
15.05.2014
The entry ‘Four potential gravitation’ in wikiversity.org (Four_potential_gravitation has been moved by Dave Braunschweig to User:Hapoth/Four_potential_gravitation. In the entry Gravitation/Scalar_theories there are under ‘Essays and studies’ links to both said new entry address and an entry User:Hapoth.
My former entry ‘Scalar theories of gravitation’ Scalar_theories_of_gravitation in wikiversity.org. has been moved by someone to Gravitation/Scalar_theories/Poth. In the entry Gravitation/Scalar_theories there is a link to said new entry under ‘Essays and studies'; the other one there, however leads to User:Hapoth/Four_potential_gravitation, which is from my point of view not a scalar theory of gravitation.
  • The "entry" User:Hapoth is merely an attribution, and it would also generate a notification to you (that is called "pinging," notifications, if set up that way, will notify you on-wiki that you have been mentioned).
  • However, it appears that the identification of the Four potential article as a scalar theory is incorrect. You could have corrected this yourself. I am removing the link. It can be discussed if your essay/article will be moved back to mainspace, and where. If it is in User space, you have maximum freedom. I was stretching our practice a bit by linking to a user space essay from mainspace. That might not be stable.
  • I am not interested in studying gravitation in detail. My work is with the organization of Wikiversity, creating and using ways for users to write and edit resources on topics they care about, while avoiding conflict, as started to happen with your work, see Talk:Gravitation/Scalar theories.
  • You are using wikilinks to topics that don't exist on Wikiversity, you would probably best replace these with links to Wikpiedia articles, which can be done by prefacing the pagename with "w:" or "wikipedia:", for example, w:tensor. --Abd (discusscontribs) 15:26, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

From Hartwig Poth to Abd: I have not added content or the like. All what I have done since the recent discussions began has been as follows:

From Hartwig Poth: I have made a minor amendment at the end of 'Essays and Studies' in Gravitation/Scalar_theories for sake of clarity. And I intend to add some more details about the theories, when I have time.--Hapoth (discuss • contribs) 18:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC) Thanks for the update. -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 18:38, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Nevertheless, thank you for your elaborate remarks. I intend to examine them.

Could you identify yourself so that I could send you copies of my publications, or are you in a Wikiversity position like Dave Braunschweig not being allowed to have direct contect with me?

Moreover, it appears that the discussions have and still do take place on various pages. It is difficult for me to follow that. Could the discussions be concentrated on one page only?

--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 18:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

From Hartwig Poth to Abd: For the time being see further details about my theories in URL https://hpoth.wordpress.com/.--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 19:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC) correctly in https://hpoth.wordpress.com --Hapoth (discusscontribs) 19:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

No, discussions take place in various places. There is nothing that can be done about that. Discussions of a resource will often take place on the attached Talk page, and then interactions with users on User talk pages. However, there can also be other places.
To answer your questions, and some other comments:
  • I'm not intending to study your theory. What I've seen is enough for what I need to know. Your work is "fringe," or at least not accepted yet by the mainstream. The user who complained thought that it should be deleted. We don't agree. But we will tag it as fringe or move it so that users will not be misled. That's all. This is not a criticism of your work; and it is simply a reality that I'm very unlikely to explore your work with the depth needed to understand it. So don't waste your time and money on that.
  • Dave is not prohibited from having direct contact. However, he is an administrator and would prefer not to have complications. I am not an administrator, though I have been one at times and might be again. I'm simply trying to assist.
  • User:Guy vandegrift is also an administrator and may be more interested in the topic. However, we have high consensus on Wikiversity about how to handle fringe topics. We are far more open than Wikipedia, but we must be careful to preserve neutrality.
  • We are not Wikipedia and don't encourage "articles" as such. Rather, we encourage study and learning, including learning-by-doing. That includes learning how to use a wiki.
  • If you want to attract the attention of a user, put a link in what you write, to their user page. That will cause notification. The "From Hartwig Poth to Abd" does much less. Your signature handles the first part and just putting wikitext [[User:Abd|]] will notify me, displaying Abd.
  • If you have it set up in your preferences, you would get these notifications. I get not only a notification as a red box at the top of my screen, but also an email, if someone puts User:Abd or the same -- see the wikitext -- Abd anywhere on the wiki. --Abd (discusscontribs) 23:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

test for User:Hapoth--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 19:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, have you got a message from that User:Abd? --Hapoth (discusscontribs) 19:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

From the username link in your question above, yes, I got an email. You would not get a message from placing your own user name, unless you are not logged in when you place it. --Abd (discusscontribs) 21:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


From User:Hapoth in particular to User:Abd but also to User:Dave_Braunschweig, User:Guy_vandegrift, User:Fedosin:

I have amended in - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Gravitation - under studies to - *User:Hapoth for a scalar and a four potential theory of gravitation -.


- http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Gravitation/Scalar_theories/Poth - should be deleted, but I don't know how to do that.


In - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Gravity/Commentary - I have inserted

- ==Studies==

  • User:Hapoth for a scalar and a four potential theory of gravitation -.


In particular as to the four potential gravitation there should be some entry where a link or the like should be made from - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Gravitational_four-potential - to

- ==Studies==

  • User:Hapoth for a scalar and a four potential theory of gravitation -,

because there is some distant similarity between them. A most valuable review in that context is - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Lorentz-invariant_theory_of_gravitation -, and there should be also some link.


The discussion as to my essays or studies could be started in - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Hapoth -.

Is that alright for the time being?--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 14:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

From User:Hapoth to User:Abd: The user Viktor Toth had started the discussions. But I can not find his user name or address in wikiversity. It appeared that he was - albeit somewhat emotionally - interested in the discussion. Could you remember Viktor Toth's user address?--87.142.236.133 (discuss) 14:26, 6 June 2015 (UTC)--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 14:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC) I have just found him User:Vttoth--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 14:32, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Gravitation/Scalar_theories/Poth has been deleted. Please note:
  • To link to wiki pages, use a [[title]] format rather than an http link. The bracket link generates internal links that can be traced using 'What links here', while the http links cannot.
  • To request deletion of a page, add {{Delete|Reason}} at the top of the page.
  • Pages should be moved rather than copied when possible. If you are the only author, it doesn't matter too much. If there are other authors, the page must be moved to retain edit history and support the BY part of CC-BY-SA licensing for wiki content.
  • Discussions are most often held on the Discussion page associated with a particular resource. Because you have made the content your personal user page, any discussions are likely to take place here.
  • Many people use their user page to describe themselves, and set up subpages for specific content and discussion.
Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 23:27, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Using your user page for an essay and then your user talk page to discuss the essay is unexpected. As Dave points out, your user page is normally about yourself, and your user talk page is for communicating about everything relating to you on Wikiversity. You have User:Hapoth/Four potential gravitation. Is there a reason you did not use that?

done is to copy your User page text to the subpage text, so what is on [[User:Hapoth} is now what is on User:Hapoth/Four potential gravitation. You may undo that, but I recommend instead that you blank your user page, and then use it to tell us something about yourself and your work, if you like.

I am changing moving the link you placed on Gravitation to a resource subpage, and it will point to the the user subpage. I don't feel entirely comfortable pointing to user space essays in a mainspace top-level resource like that, and it's worse if it is from a top-level resourse and points to a straight user page without a title. --Abd (discusscontribs) 23:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


From hapoth to User:Abd, User:Dave_Braunschweig, User:Guy_vandegrift, User:Fedosin, User:Vttoth:

I have drafted User:Hapoth/Gravitation_theory as a subpage under User:Hapoth. Instead of a 'Discussion' I have added some 'Comments' on the bottom of that subpage. Moreover I have amdended 'my' link at the bottom of Gravitation correspondingly; that link could be moved to a new page which is for alternative theories of gravitation, albeit there is already one in wikipedia [[1]] and in other places [[2]] and there is a book [1] and surely much more. Sorry for the confusion so far.--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 13:25, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

  1. Clifford M. Will 'Theory and experiment in gavitational physics' (Cambridge University Press, 1993, ISBN 0 521 43973 6 paperback)

From hapoth to User:Abd, User:Dave_Braunschweig: Could someone enter in Gravitation/Scalar_theories/Poth that the new link is now User:Hapoth/Gravitation_theory?--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 14:05, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

You asked that the page at Gravitation/Scalar_theories/Poth be deleted. It no longer exists. There is nothing there to enter a link into. We don't redirect from main space to user space. You need to decide whether you want to have this content in main space, subject to the discussion and editing of others, or you want it in user space to be left alone for your own efforts. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 20:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)


From hapoth to User:Abd, User:Dave_Braunschweig, User:Guy_vandegrift, User:Fedosin, User:Vttoth: I have created Gravitation/Poth under the heading "Studies" so that it is now correctly in "main space"? Precautionarly I have left the contents of that contribution in my user space. If that Gravitation/Poth under the heading "Studies" is acceptable, I could develop it further.--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 16:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm fine with the 'Studies' heading in the main article. I am concerned with the naming of the sub-article being the author's name rather than the content name. In reviewing the content, it appears as though two pages should be created, one for Four Potential Theory and one for Scalar Theory. This would allow the two theories to be discussed separately rather than only in combination. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 16:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Dave, we might link from mainspace *subpages* to user pages. It's one of the alternatives available to us. The links must be such as to not represent any Wikiversity approval of those pages, beyond a decision that it is possible that they may be useful for learning. It's somewhat equivalent to our creation of essay pages. The difference is that we will strongly defend user pages against changes by others than the user. In mainspace, we will not automatically defend, but ... we will generally defend attributed essays, the same. But a link to a User page, no, with one exception I can think of. There could be a list of users interested in a topic.
But Hapoth's use of his user page for an essay, we should discourage. He gains nothing but it causes confusion. Rather, he can have the essay as a subpage, and he may link to his own subpage from his user page, as a piece of his work, no problem.
Hapoth, my apologies on behalf of Wikiversity. All this is not well-documented, it is actual practice that has developed to handle the potential conflict of people arguing for deletion of original research, especially when it is fringe. We used to see that a lot. By considering the educational purpose of Wikiversity, studies of fringe science are educational. Even if "wrong." This is well-established now, so if your work is framed as an attributed essay, it is quite safe. Deletion discussions are disruptive, and we want to avoid that waste of time, that produces nothing of value except possible cleanup of what might be misleading. So we make sure it is not misleading, by tagging it as possible fringe, as one example.
Be assured that my goal and Dave's goal are that you be able to fully express yourself and your work. We are only concerned with how it is organized. User:Vttoth was concerned about misrepresentation of what he considered fringe. There is nothing wrong with that concern. He was not familiar with Wikiversity and how we handle this -- and few Wikipedians know about it. That's all. He is welcome to criticise. He may do so, with an essay, on the attached talk page. We will generally defend and allow that, as long as he does not violate civility or other policies, which I do not expect.
We are effectively building an open educational institution here, *and* maintaining site neutrality and improving quality. We have years of work ahead of us, and a lot of confusion from the past to clean up. One step at a time. Part of this job will be documenting all this, so that it becomes routine and any user can support it, knowing what to do. --Abd (discusscontribs) 14:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


From hapoth to User:Abd, User:Dave_Braunschweig: Please note the section "Studies" in Gravitation where I have eventually inserted my contributions.

I did not understand what it means to "rename" a page, therefore I have created new ones. However, it appears that to "rename" a page and to "move" a page are two important editing steps. It would be therefore useful for amateurish people like me to explain both procedures in the Help pages. In the future I would prefer to "move" a page if necessary since then its entire history is preserved.

The Wikiversity can not be perfect of course. For me it has become important because I could find only in Wikiversity literally after years of research some prior art concerning four potential gravitation, in particular Gravitational four-potential from user:Fedosin. That alone shows, how important it can be that some less or truly non mainstream contributions are published in a quality platform in the internet. I have no problem to mark my contributions as "fringe science".

I hope that now my contributions have not be be moved or renamed again so that I can start complementing them.--Hapoth (discusscontribs) 18:57, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

If your contributions are moved or renamed, it should not affect your ability to work on them. When a page is moved, normally a redirect is left in place. However, sometimes this redirect is suppressed (when an administrator moves it) or it has been deleted. When a page is moved, it will show under the new name in your Contributions history. So if you can't figure out where a page has been moved to, look at your Contributions, there is a link when you are logged in at the top of your screen, toward the right.
To request deletion of a page, place this at the top of the page: {{delete|your reason}} Replace "your reason" with a reason for deletion. "request by sole author" would be a reason, and if the history confirms that, it will be routinely deleted by the first administrator who notices the tag. (See below for an example of why you might want to do that.)
"Renaming" a page is the same as moving a page. At the top of the page when you are viewing it, with the common interface, there is a tab titled "More." If you click on that tab, you will see a Move option. Be careful with Move, because certain moves create a bit of a mess to clean up. But don't be so careful that you don't use the tool. If you make mistakes, we will clean them up. The most common mistake is using the wrong namespace. For example, you create a page My gravity theory. Then you realize this should not be in mainspace. Instead of deleting it, move it. But when you move it, if you moved it to Hapoth/My gravity theory it will still be a mainspace page, now under Hapoth. Look at the interface. The page you would want to create would be User:Hapoth/My gravity theory.
With the Move command, after "new title" there is a pull-down menu. One of the choices there is "User" You would pick that, then the name you would enter would be "Hapoth/My gravity theory" which will then end up in the right place.
Your education in how to use the wiki is part of our mission. So don't worry about mistakes, we are happy to fix them, and you will learn from them, we expect new users to make mistakes.
One more point. If you simply create a page with a bad name in some way, say mispelled, just fix the name with Move and then put a deletion tag on the redirect that will automatically be created when you move the page. We don't need lots of redirects from simple spelling errors, for example. Clean them up by requesting deletion, your tag could be {{delete|mispelled title}} We usually only keep redirects when there is a clear need for them.
Thanks for recognizing the value of Wikiversity. We agree. -- (unsigned by Abd, 2015)