User talk:Daanschr

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Hi Daanschr I've never taken a philosophy course but have read and debate many philosophical topics. I've put up a first lesson in the Nietzsche Department Nietzsche Name Game please feel free to contribute. I like your point about the importance of debate and the impossibility of a Neutral Point of View. You should definitely convert this Wikipedia article into a learning project here at Wikiversity. Mystictim 18:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Learning to learn a wiki way[edit]

Hi Daanschr I've updated the Learning to learn a wiki way project page and kicked of the talk section. I've begun recruiting people by asking them why they are interested in the project and what they want from the project. Could you help out with invitations to your contacts. Mystictim 00:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


Hi Daanschr, I saw this [1] - I hope you're not going to leave the English Wikiversity simply because of a difference of opinion with one (or perhaps a few) user(s)? It would be a shame if this were the case. Perhaps you would care to refine your thoughts into divergent materials, each of which look at a particular story or point of view. Then you could start to develop a course that looks at each viewpoint and raises deep questions about the world, religion, power, war etc.. Or perhaps start a joint learning project where you can each identify your goals and use the debate as a part of the learning process? What do you think? Cormaggio talk 11:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I regard StuRat's opinion as illegal. I don't agree that the opinion of an extremist, making hatespeeches against a whole nation to justify large scale abuses of human rights should be tolerated by a website or institution of which i am part of. StuRat has made suggestions about the treatment of Iraninians and Palestinians which are, i think, illegal according to Dutch and European law. The only way to deal with this sort of extremism is social exclusion and criminalisation in my opinion.--Daanschr 14:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Invitation to join a reading club[edit]

Hello Daanschr, I was wondering if you are going to write this to many users ? As I see in the Colloquium this was not finished talking about or ? People interested in this could find it about an announcement in the Colloquium, don't you think ? Wouldn't it also be better to use the Mediawiki:Sitenotice for this ? then users who login see this Sitenotice. Or post an entry at Wikiversity:Announcements. Instead now flooding the Wikiversity, we could start slow and when we see there is not so much reaction, we could think of other means. What do you say ? ----Erkan Yilmaz (talk ?, wiki blog) 09:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


Hi, I am in #wikiversity-en ? ----Erkan Yilmaz (Wikiversity:Chat, wiki blog) 11:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Reading Club[edit]

Daanschr, sorry to take so long to respond to your invitation. I am not big on Social Sciences but if something were proposed related to social dynamics of small isolated groups I could participate at this time. Mirwin 23:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Daanschr, an update, I found an excellent prospect for a book for our reading project. I am going to look for proper places to add it into your reading club directory now. Then I have to figure out how to purchase it. I am still buoycotting over their silly one push button patent so I will probably stop by a local bookseller next week and order it. Probably take a few weeks before I can start reading but I think it is important to help local merchants survive. I live in an economically depressed rural area and we keeping losing our new and used bookstores. Mirwin 01:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I have paid for the book and it is antipated by mail a week from this friday .. that would be ... today is tuesday 22Nov07 so plus wednesday,thursday,friday would be 25 and 7 for 32 December 07. Eureka! Holiday no delivery till Jan 2 earliest ... if that is on saturday ... mail will be running on monday so .... I expected arrival on the 4 Jan 2008 plus or minus a couple of days according to aggreement with local bookcycler (she is my supplier of used books as well and buyback profitable or remarketable used books). Same delay as for weekend so expected delivery is still Fourth Jan, 2008. I agree with you lets each enjoy the book in our own way entirely first and then we can discuss our thought regarding the author's efforts and how they impacted our previous understanding with the living universe all around us. So unless I hear back I figure we got an agreed approach in will I should be able to meet my committment to start reading by 4 Jan 2008 and I am usually quick reader when interested. Been long time since I have been in a book reading club ... in fact I think it was literature classes in College about two decades ago so I should have no longer generating motivation to get finished within two weeks. I intend to be done and substantially closed out with this book reading adventure by NLT Feb, 2008. Those are my mile stones that I intend to keep to myself. If you choose to set your some specific metrics I would be happy to hear about them and work together so we both accomplish all of our individual and mutual overlapping intentions to the extent feasible given unavoidable external influences. Thanks! Mirwin 23:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Daanschr, I somehow erroniouslly incremented a month in the above. I have completed reading The Diamond Club. I am prepared to discuss or file a book report in whatever form you think most advantageous to showing activity at the Reading Club portal. Briefly, I was very disappointed. Stephensen did a good job of world building but never really addressed issues involved with computerised self study or isolation that I hoped he would. The exploration of social issues involved with advanced computerization and nanotech seemed very shallow and cookie cutterish. Almost a luddite or fear the machine anti tech presentation. I hope you got/get more out of it than I did. Prose is always good and enjoyable reading although some of the imagery was a bit shocking or distasteful at times. Then the book ends with little or no plot resolution! We find out who somebody is, nanotech is majick. A war wanders by, a sovereign wanders off. Vague hint of a happy ever after or we will survive together, nothing more. I would not now recommend the book to anyone. Considering that I proposed it, if you have not already started on it, you are welcome to skip it! lol Let me know what you decide. P.S. I will have to review the summary at Wikipedia to see how I was led so far astray. Maybe stay away from fancruft in the future. 8) Mirwin 04:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Daanschr: I thought you'd quit the Illich reading group anyways? Initially I liked the idea of trying to bring some kind of 'weekly' schedule, but I then realized that I don't think its going to help and that it's kind of artificial in a project that can for all intents and purposes go over a long period of time on the wiki and have people join at different points. I think for the portal we should have some kind of designation as to whether groups are active or not, which may mean that an edit has been made at least within 6 months or so. Countrymike 20:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Future of Reading Groups[edit]

Daanschr, I am wiling to try to participate in larger groups if that is perceived as useful experiment. I would prefer to stick with space or Lunar Boom Town related materials if possible. "A Diamond Age" as it is discussed at Wikipedia centering around a "primer" used for self education looked very applicable to Wikiversity. Obviously I view Wikiversity as a critical component of any future free engineering efforts to help bring down the cost of space tech, dev, and settlements. I will participate to the extent that I can drum up interest in specific books or topics. Mirwin 22:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Joined the Polypepnission War group. Close anyway. War is always applicable to pioneers. 8( What time and day is weekly IRC discussion? Thanks! Mirwin 23:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
So far there was no real fixed date, mostly it was on weekends, see please here for the old meetings. Does it go on this weekend ? (not mentioned a certain date/time, just asking) ----Erkan Yilmaz (Wikiversity:Chat, wiki blog) 00:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I am in favour of let it going on this weekend.--Daanschr 07:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
ping, ----Erkan Yilmaz (Wikiversity:Chat, wiki blog) 15:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Made 2 announcements: Wikiversity:Announcements, ----Erkan Yilmaz (Wikiversity:Chat, wiki blog) 15:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


[2], ----Erkan Yilmaz (Wikiversity:Chat, wiki blog) 20:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


Does this fall foul of the spam filter? --McCormack 11:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I posted a test edit to Mike's page - no problem. Perhaps it's the content of your edit that is the problem? --McCormack 12:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Action research[edit]

Thanks very much Daanschr - I've very much appreciated your thoughts so far, and of course it's fine to dip in and out as and when you like. I'll start doing some work on the project page and its subpages after I get a bit more clarity on the Colloquium - and we can use these pages to brainstorm and start planning some concrete steps. Cormaggio talk 09:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear you've been sick, Daanschr - I hope you've recovered or are on the road to recovery. :-) Yes, the Colloquium discussion has faded a bit - and I've been thinking about how to progress from this point. I think we need to set out a plan of concrete action (or perhaps a number of plans) - and just to clarify, which idea from SB_Johnny did you like? A meeting might help too - and I'm always aware that we need to provide for people who don't have access to audio/visual and other communication tools/platforms, such as yourself (though I think you have access to IRC, right?). I think I'll make a stab at something tomorrow - I've got a meeting with my PhD supervisors tomorrow morning and they might be able to give me some ideas for what to do now. But please don't hesitate in adding your own ideas. :-) Thanks again, Cormaggio talk 19:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I've responded to your comment on my own talk page... Cormaggio talk 14:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Started work on refactoring project page and starting Wikiversity learning model/Reading group and Wikiversity learning model/Discussion group... Cormaggio talk 23:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Tomorrow's meeting[edit]

So, everything for tomorrow fit ? You have an email - btw: why don't you activate your email here too ? ----Erkan Yilmaz (Wikiversity:Chat, wiki blog) 17:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


... for this. Didn't read yet the text :-( ----Erkan Yilmaz (Wikiversity:Chat, wiki blog) 17:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Page reorganisation[edit]

Hi Daan. Thanks for your message. I'm glad to hear you would like to help with this. How would you like to approach things? I'm capable of giving megalomaniac instructions, but a more consensus-based approach is "nicer". One of the things I'm waiting for is the activation of the subpagelist extension, so that we can start a subpage reorganisation - i.e. get lost pages back into their learning projects as subpages. Another way forward is to experiment with the DPL tag to identify organisational problems. --McCormack 08:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Hi Daan. I've added a note to the learning resources talk page about academic titles. --McCormack 13:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
    • And another about age. Mind you, is 29 really that young!! ;-) --McCormack 15:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you trashcan.jpg

Hello Daan, I just made a review of the Thucydides project - for me personally - and in case I didn't tell this lately: without you I would have not reached my learning goals so far there. Hope we continue like this. Just in case: can I do something for you ? Tell me please. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat 10:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Dutch Wikimedians[edit]

Hi Daan, as well as our very own Jeroen :-), other Dutch Wikimedians I would immediately point you towards are Jan-Bart, and Marjon - both of whom work in Kennisnet (Jan Bart is on the Wikimedia board), Peter, and Oscar. Also, I think Lodewijk is secretary of the Dutch Wikimedia chapter (I presume this is the "union" you mentioned), and I'm sure he'd be delighted to point you toward the next meetup. In fact, all of these are involved in the Dutch chapter, none of them are dull ;-), and are all very interested in Wikiversity, and the possibility of a Dutch project. If you want, I can introduce you via email or whatever... Cormaggio talk 10:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh well, congratulations on your new job, Daan! It's a shame you won't be around though - and I'm sorry our envisaged collaborations didn't come to much - though I very much appreciate the contribution you've made to my research so far. And the people I mentioned will still be around whenever you have the time - they're in this for the "long haul". ;-) Cormaggio talk 11:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Meeting better Saturday[edit]

Hi Daan, the meeting Saturday would be a better date for me. Is this ok ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 20:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you remember - I talked about some other literature I am interested in ? I set up now the page: Romance of the Three Kingdoms (by Luo Guanzhong). ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 01:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

A Short History of Nearly Everything[edit]

Sounds interesting - if I would have more time, I would join. I will check my time plan and add myself if it works out. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 11:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I looked it up already, about 700 pages. Let's see how much people can be gathered ? Don't wanna order it until I intend to take part. atm: after finishing the OER-course - I will participate in another course about copyright: de:Kurs:Urheberrecht. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 13:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
"His project seems very interesting. I might be joining it." <-- We could start a page here about the project. I wonder if they would be interested in a "wiki branch" of their project. --JWSchmidt 22:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

IRC meeting[edit]

Hi Daan - just notifying you of a suggested time/date for an IRC meeting about 'Wikiversity learning'. Could you indicate if you would be available, or would prefer a different time/date? Cormaggio talk 14:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Daan, and happy birthday, I think?! Can you please email me - I cannot email you through the special:email function. I'm cormaggio [at] gmail dot com. Thanks. Cormaggio talk 10:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OER course[edit]

You were added :-) ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) PS: Tag a learning project with completion status !! 21:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

w:Wikipedia:WikiProject organized debate[edit]

Hi. If you don't have a copy of this, I can import it for you. "Mystictim" seems not to have been active for the past 2 years though. --SB_Johnny | talk 09:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw the page (I'm an admin on wp). Just thought you might like to restart it here... good stuff :-). JWSchmidt and I are both admins there, so we can import deleted files (unfortunately only wp-admin custodians can do that). --SB_Johnny | talk 20:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Will do... wasn't sure what your answer was last time :). --SB_Johnny | talk 10:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Done: WikiProject organized debate. Please rename it :-). --SB_Johnny | talk 10:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: social call[edit]

Fine, thx. Just drinking my 2nd coffee. Trying to relax a little, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, some things just need some time to get into right stage. btw: what is going on with Wikipedia and the history project you wanted to do ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Well - in parallel - with other things I do. :-)
I see it i simported already: WikiProject organized debate - will have a look later, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
hehe, you are right. how did you know that I support both teams ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 19:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the bad part is, I have no live stream, just a ticker :-) ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 19:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Ticker is meant to mean a status-bar with the current results + live stream was meant to be: watching live. I hope you have sweet dreams. See you, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 21:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow - didn't expect that since yesterday. I am sure you will find something to concentrate on in this time. Leave stressful things away - I am sure this will increase your life. So, how can we convince you to do more WV-related things ? ;-) ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 16:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, was sleeping before when you came into chat :-(
Well, good luck with finding that :-)----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I see it as another experience then for you - nice. Gotta go, my brother came, see you later in the evening. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 17:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

We can chat now, if you like, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 12:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


Hay mate, I am interested in the readings. Maybe you could get a job as a history teacher! But it would be great, thanks Enlil Ninlil 07:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I have thought about teaching already. My main doubt is my shyness. I don't know wether i can keep the class ordered enough. I have worked for three years in education though. 2.5 years with 4-7 years old and a half year with 16-20 years old. I know from these experiences that children and adolescents like me, but that i am bad in keeping order as well.--Daanschr 08:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, if the education system works as in Germany, this will probably take some time. I guess there are some other ways to "teach" ? E.g. are there around some leisure/recreational facilities where youths go in and out ? You could talk with one of the administratives to do there something - nothing big. I guess they welcome anyone who wants to help. ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 17:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Guess who started yesterday to read from Thucydides again ? :-) Though I did not start in Thucydides itself and where we stopped. I like more reading the English summary (when I have to discover words and noting them down). I think I must find my appetite for Thucydides again. Let's see when I read next - wanted to do it today, but then something else came in :-) ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 12:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back again :-) Yes, I will read a little more now an dthen let's see when we can start again.
So, what about you ? What have you done recently ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 16:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure about this week. Where should we start ? where we stopped last time: Book 3, aphorism 50-75 ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 16:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't do much more lately :-( ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

So, how is life ?[edit]

I am a little tired today - so much stress (don't wanna talk bout it though), ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Life is ok. Don't feel very well. I will start looking for a job next week. Working would help. I took a month off, and now it has been enough.
On Thucydides: I don't think that user Enlil will return, so we don't need to do the reading only for him. Perhaps we can read the book of Bryson. I can guarantee that you will like it (You may hit me if you don't like it, which is impossible because we know eachother only from internet) ;-)--Daanschr 18:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
lol :-) We could be neighbors, who knows.
Let me think about Bryson - perhaps better Thucydides, but in slow tempo. Who knows I might change my mind in 5 mins and buy Bryson online, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
We are reading Thucydides too slow for the kind of text that it is. It has no use to read small peaces and discuss them, because many times there isn't much to tell about it. If we read Thucydides, than we should read larger chunks of text and discuss them. We could than compare certain texts with each other.--Daanschr 06:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
too slow: unfortunately true. I just always see somany things at WV where I like to participate/help and then the time for reading gets less :-( ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
You do a great job on Wikiversity!--Daanschr 19:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

We are different people trying to be helpful, but we disagree with each other[edit]

You said "It could also be that they are different persons who are in a league together to disrupt Wikiversity and are very successful in it. Maybe it is some kind of student fraternity. It is strange for instance that none of the three users became angry for being seen as sockpuppets. They only respond to each other or are making suggestions indicating that they agree with me."

We are different people trying to be helpful, but we disagree with each other. I am a long time contributor at Wikipedia. Read w:H5N1 and its related pages to see the work I have done there. I also am the guy who created the initial w:WP:BLP proposal, so I have a long history of trying to improve ethical behavior at Wikipedia. Moulton is a Ph.D. scientist who genuinely wishes to improve Wikipedia articles that are about people he cares about and an article about a scientific subject he is actively engaged with. Salmon of Doubt, I believe I recognize from his psychology as a long time vandal fighting admin at Wikipedia. We all mean well. We disagree about how to best create these learning resources. I think everyone should leave each other alone and just separately write resources. Moulton believes in the value of drama as a method of learning. Salmon of Doubt believes in censorship and punishment. WAS 4.250 23:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The way you three act to each other seems so strange to me, that I had the impression that you were acting. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My main interest in this conflict was to get it off the Colloquium. Also, I saw that the main active people on Wikiversity were all responding to it, which didn't seem like a good idea.--Daanschr 07:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, we are three strange people. :) All older than you, I believe (I know that I and Moulton are; his real life identity is trivial to discover and I am an old retired guy in poor health). WAS 4.250 07:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I feel a bit ashamed. Good luck with your project!
I am unemployed for a month and will be looking for a job next week. I don't know if Wikiversity will become a success. At first i tried it out and saw that little was happening here. Next year i returned because i had a job with very little today and a computer right in front of me. So, i could spend my time at work being active on Wikiversity. Otherwise i wouldn't have been here anymore.--Daanschr 08:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I wish you the best of luck. Also, I hope you pay more attention than I did to that sage advice: "It's not what you know, it's who you know." Network. Socialize. Smile. WAS 4.250 08:48, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I took a month off on purpose. My experience is that i can get a job pretty easy. In my last job i didn't like my colleagues. After a while i had enough and quitted. I should be warry about my curriculum vitae. I have only worked for a year now. I graduated last year.--Daanschr 09:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

(<---) I once knew a Director of People Resources who was in emotional turmoil; saw a psychiatrist; who told him he hated his job and needed to quit no matter what the financial cost. He did and got a lower paying job; but was far happier. WAS 4.250 09:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it will turn out fine. :-)--Daanschr 17:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

study before editing[edit]

As a participant in Ethical Management of the English Language Wikipedia I have spent a significant amount of time studying w:Rosalnd Picard. I am documenting my research at Ethical Management of the English Language Wikipedia/Moulton, JWSchmidt's investigation. So far I have made one edit to the Wikipedia biography about Picard; a request for a citation. I have also begun to participate at several Wikipedia discussion/talk pages where the Picard and related articles have been discussed. I am also participating at Study project on Intelligent Design and I have begun to study w:David Berlinski and w:Icons of Evolution. --JWSchmidt 12:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"Is everything alright with you" <-- yes. I think it is inevitable that some Wikiversity participants who have so far gone their own ways here will eventually start talking to each other. That might happen soon....but many people seem to be rushing to just stick their fingers in their ears. --JWSchmidt 14:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"the present topics may be too obscure" <-- I agree. This is what happens when you work with science nerds. Can we find some Wikipedia article that is of interest to everyone? The problem is, most Wikipedia articles on "popular" topics get attention and present a fair balance of views. It is really only the little-known articles that can have serious problems...problems that arise from having too few eyes on the page. So we have a catch-22. --JWSchmidt 15:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"one central major topic" <-- maybe something in the general area of the relationship between religion and science. The debate over "creation science" seems fairly high-profile. The two specific articles that were selected for the Study project on Intelligent Design are in that general subject area. --JWSchmidt 15:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I ever noticed WikiProject study before editing:Science and creationism (Intelligent Design). I'm a bit puzzled about how the "congress" idea might relate to pages such as Study project on Intelligent Design. --JWSchmidt 17:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Reading World politics-hello from Jolie[edit]

hello. As a lifelong student, I want to make a continual effort at being informed and knowledgeable. I have become intrigued by the wikimedia model. How does contributing here differ in educational value from readings at the library or participation on an internet forum?

The reading is a little tedious and difficult with no social interaction but online forums can be mindless ranting with little to no educational value. Right now, I would like an opportunity to learn more about the social sciences. I think there are many interesting possibilities and I welcome your input. If I could ask just one favor of you, this would be SO much easier if the material were on-line and freely accessable.

An acedemic from holland and a chemist from the USA might have great difficulty getting similar reading material.--Jolie 13:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Invitation to the Wikipedia course project[edit]

Hi! Would you like to contribute to the Wikipedia course? You may for example add your name to the list of interested course developers. Kindly Mange01 08:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject study before editing:Science and creationism (Intelligent Design)[edit]

Here is one answer to the question that you asked. Others here at wikiversity might have different opinions on the topic... The category scheme on wikiversity is an important (IMO) part of our attempt to organize content and aide people in finding pages on related topics. When there are multiple subpages you could add them to [[Category:WikiProject study before editing]] for example, and that specific page could also be added to a new category with a name such as [[Category:Intelligent Design]]. Were you aware of Study project on Intelligent Design? If similar pages had been in the same category, it would have been easier (at least for me) to discover that such pages existed. Feel free to drop me a note if you'd like to discuss this more, or if you have any questions. I'm not too particular about how pages get categorized, but I do find it helpfull. You might also find that someone else will come along and start adding the page to categories, if they also find it of use to do so. --mikeu talk 20:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I have made some categories.--Daanschr 20:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Intelligent design[edit]

Hi Daan. If you have some idea of where you want to go with the projet, I know there's quite a few contributors on wikipedia that have an interest and might participate (w:Wikipedia:WikiProject intelligent design would probably be the place to start). Just a heads up on Barry though: he's had some run-ins with people active on that project, and part of what got him into trouble both on Wikipedia and on Wikiversity is that he's been somehow involved with "outing" a couple of those editors, and he's proven unwilling to stop using their real-life names both on the wiki and on other websites. Just wanted to make sure you knew where things stand there. --SB_Johnny talk 21:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I think something that may help focus (and possibly work as a sister page to your project) would be a page devoted to the difference and similarity of "evolution" and "Darwinism". Also, a small discussion on the emotionality behind the project would be an interesting topic. Just some possible suggestions. I wouldn't want it to be turned into a pursuit of individual editors. That was a mistake from before. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Johnny, Ottava, the idea to pursue Intelligent Design was Barry's. My main wish was to get the WikiProject going. Therefore i needed contributors. Without Barry, there is no special need for me to pursue this topic. I can also choose something else. But, thanks for the suggestions.--Daanschr 06:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Ah, ok... sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't think you'll get any other contributors if moulton continues to be involved. --SB_Johnny talk 12:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
He isn't practically involved. I am the only contributor and creator of the project.--Daanschr 16:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia and the 2008 US elections‎[edit]

Heya Daan. This is focused on a "study of editing" rather than a "study before you edit" project, but I think it has potential, and would welcome any time you can give to it. --SB_Johnny talk 17:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I was contacting you :-). But yes, I've been in touch with some wikipedian folks about it. --SB_Johnny talk 20:55, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Authentic learning communities[edit]

As you know, I have a strong commitment to the construction of authentic learning communities. If you have an interesting in collaborating in an award-winning model learning community, I stand ready to join you. —Moulton 11:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If you are constructive in your dealings with people, than that will be possible.--Daanschr 16:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


A community can easily become a club. In most cases it does. This inevitably results consciously or unconsciously in an attitude us against them, the club members against the rest. Academia is no exception, may be even a leader in this pattern. The definition of Universitas as given above is: whole, total, universe, world , (German word would be All) To me the difference between a Community of learners denotes ultimately no responsibility or belonging. Universitas magistrorum on the other hand in its original meaning seems to indicate, to me at least, a vital roll of the non human component of the "All" as legitimate may be even The Teacher and not subject (the viewpoint of universe/nature as mere subject was mainly adapted since Descartes). As a matter of fact the metaphor of the "Sorcerer's Apprentice" seems to be fitting in this connection. Humanity , the perpetual apprentice is charged with an obligation - to look after the house while the master is gone as part of his/her apprentic-ship. Too often in the past we mistook our task to look after the masters house to try out, without understanding what we are doing, the little bit we learned, often with catastrophic consequences. We thought we know a lot , and probably we do. We understand however very little not to say nothing that really matters. Wikiversity I think is an opportunity to go back philosophically to our roots, at least in the western cultural setting. To me that would mean to rethink and may be even incorporate Socratic principles in the mission of Wikiversity. Such an effort would surely deserve the title Universitas in its original meaning. Sorry for the rant, but to me this is the crux of the problem and i hope it will be discussed further

Altera vista 22:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Being new to all this and not knowing protocolls / habits of folks I am copying my respone directly to your site : Being very interested in and impressed by the concept of Wikiversity and after initial attempts to get started to contribute ( learning language, templates etc etc) I began to monitor the " Colloquium". Here are 2 observations, for what they might be worth,( if anything)

  • Reading the entry On "Apology" I felt as if i would try to join a country club with its own language, only initiated would be able to follow. The specific reason was the expression " sockpuppeteer" . The reader can probably deduct from my comment that i grew up prior to the " internet revolution", but it seems to me in a project such as wikiversity ( again this is said with the proviso that i interpret the mission of wikipedia correctly) participation should have as few hurdles as possible, and every attempt should be made to make the mechanics of participation as easy as possible. I think commonly ( i hope that includes still my generation) understood language where ever possible might be used. Altera vista 12:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Well, a "sockpuppeteer" -- the word is used on the WP signpost article (the "signpost" is something akin to a newspaper) -- is someone who has a number of accounts under different names, and uses the accounts to make it appear that they are different people. I don't know the history of Poetlister in particluar, but I'm under the impression he may have been using these to rig votes. Part of the reason there was concern is that he was a "checkuser" on one of the wikis, and one of the chief duties of a checkuser is to identify sockpuppeteers. Weird stuff happens on wikis sometimes... hope that helps explain a bit of the jargon. --SB_Johnny talk 16:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Suggestion for policy development

Again as a newcomer I lack insight to comment directly on policies. So i tried to inform myself regarding the underlying principles of wikiversity ( not policies , code of conduct, etc but the underlying philosophical context) may be the discussion should / could begin with the translation of Universitas as in universitas magistrorum et scholarium - a community of teaching and learning . According to the translation of universitas is:the whole, total, universe, world community of teaching and learning might be translated more correctly into: Communitas magistrorum et scholarium If that is the case then my comments under 1 are misplaced. if it is correct however may be attempts and/or suggestions could be made how to move from a Communitas to an Universitas based organization. It seems to me that the former is definitely a subset of /included in the more universal latter ( and I hope that still would include my generation) If I am too far off base please just ignore this. Altera vista 12:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

We always appreciate the ideas and insights of newcomers! Do you have any particular ideas for how to develop more of a Universitas? The Jade Knight (d'viser) 19:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Altera Vista, I am not sure what you mean with a universitas rather than a communitas? I could explain how i like Wikiversity to develop. At the moment the focus seems to be mainly on facilitating learning or learning about learning. I prefer to learn about something, and that something is all knowledge and details of that knowledge, as universal as possible and for all people to participate in.--Daanschr 14:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

A community can easily become a club. In most cases it does. This inevitably results consciously or unconsciously in an attitude us against them, the club members against the rest. Academia is no exception, may be even a leader in this pattern. The definition of Universitas as given above is: whole, total, universe, world , (German word would be All) To me the difference between a Community of learners denotes ultimately no responsibility or belonging. Universitas magistrorum on the other hand in its original meaning seems to indicate, to me at least, a vital roll of the non human component of the "All" as legitimate may be even The Teacher and not subject (the viewpoint of universe/nature as mere subject was mainly adapted since Descartes). As a matter of fact the metaphor of the "Sorcerer's Apprentice" seems to be fitting in this connection. Humanity , the perpetual apprentice is charged with an obligation - to look after the house while the master is gone as part of his/her apprentic-ship. Too often in the past we mistook our task to look after the masters house to try out, without understanding what we are doing, the little bit we learned, often with catastrophic consequences. We thought we know a lot , and probably we do. We understand however very little not to say nothing that really matters. Wikiversity I think is an opportunity to go back philosophically to our roots, at least in the western cultural setting. To me that would mean to rethink and may be even incorporate Socratic principles in the mission of Wikiversity. Such an effort would surely deserve the title Universitas in its original meaning. Sorry for the rant, but to me this is the crux of the problem and i hope it will be discussed furtherAltera vista 22:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

But do you have any particular suggestions as to how we might be able to better accomplish this? The Jade Knight (d'viser) 05:22, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

In the western monastic tradition, the focus on universalism is combined with a focus on scheduling time and concentrated labour. I agree with you that it is important to be part of the universe and not to be part of a small ignorant community. On the other hand, there need to be tasks, activity, devotion for details. This in order to ensure that we are not merely talking but also working, maintaining. (I find it hard to put it in words)--Daanschr 08:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

One could argue that the Western monastic movement is based on the Benedict of Nursia (Benedictine Order) (see Mumford) His innovation was Ora ET Labora . Translated more to our task it would be Contemplate AND Work. Contemplation should lead to Understanding, and understanding is the beginning of wisdom (Noesis the Greek used to call it) Work on the other hand leads to Knowledge.( Related to Dianoia) Knowledge is the beginning of habit. We have undoubtedly much and often sophisticated knowledge , but sad to say we have little understanding. Knowledge builds on reason, understanding requires all of our human capabilities. (J.R Saul puts it at 6 in his book " On Equilibrium") All of them have to be brought together in order to obtain understanding and this I think was the insight of Benedict, which became the foundation of Western Culture. ( Don't blame him for our " Back sliding"). You ask what can we do in practical terms?! I think there are no answers in the sense we like to have absolute answers we can take home and follow confidently like a recipe in a cook book. All we can do analyze the situation and respond prudently, realizing that this response has to be revisited and adjusted constantly. In the first case ( answers) we are isolated we don't need anybody else we have it we can cook in our own little kitchen . in the second case we have to be by necessity connected - consciously connected to what ever came before us. This , by necessity, will - not give us - but bring us in touch with what Socrates referred to as the 'Greater Good'. In practical terms Wikiversity could try and encourage in each project its connections / how it relates to the Universal / the Greater Good as Socrates might have suggested. This would also attract folks that have no particular insight in the specifics of the project butcould probe its wider ramifications. By making or encouraging this possibility it would become natural to pose questions that would/ could lead beyond the confines of the particular subject. I would feel disruptive if i , for example would raise such questions on a project that deals with " how to make better videos" ( just an arbitrary example that came to mind) On the other hand such an expansion of a project might lead to as yet unexplored possibilities. I believe it is the opportunity and task of all of us to set that stage ( And here stops the rant sorry it got so long , I can wax real passionate about this) Altera vista 13:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC) P.S. Most contemporary universities follow the dictum of bacon: "..knowledge is power" Wikiversity's motto could be Knowledge is the handmaiden of understanding The first leads to fragmentation and compartmentalization the second one would lead to inclusion, and interconnectedness . (On and on he goes!) Altera vista 13:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Knowledge is power Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est taken from: Meditationes Sacrae. De Haeresibus. by: Sir Francis Bacon,1597 I agree with you to a point. Everything is a balance. You mentioned fundamentalism (christianity etc) is intuition gone wild, devoid of common sense, --( sensus communis -- I am using Latin phrases not to show that I know them but because our terms have been often so compromised that they become almost useless in communicating), -- and reason. Voltaire and his compatriots on the other hand were mostly concerned with the problems of his time. They were first and foremost interested in combating the utterly corrupted political spiritual and also intellectual conditions they lived in. As weapon of choice they reached back to the Tradition of Anaximander and Socrates. Both ( Anaximander introduced and Socrates expanded the concept of Reason as guiding principle. That concept of reason as the Greek understood it however combined both Knowledge and Wisdom/ Understanding. With this they could postulate that Reason in itself was connected to moral value. as Max Horkheimer in one of his lectures ( I do not recall the specifics at the moment, Alzheimer's disease is setting in!!) pointed out is both a tool and a principle. One cannot blame the folks of the 18th century to be " blown away" by the spectacular success the application of reason as tool created that the bigger concept of Reason was forgotten. This oversight precisely led and had to lead to romanticism which ultimately embraces utopianism. Utopianism however is pure absolutism a fundamentalism of some sorts. I think tolerance might be a better description then Relativism ( one could make a coherent argument that relativism ultimately can lead or justify Auschwitz) what Taoism is based on. science on the other hand to day is not what Bacon, Voltaire or the rest of that crowd had in mind. If for no other reason the drive to privatize intellectual property is the antithesis of science as they envisioned it. And patent protection seems to have become the hallmark of academia today. With the conception : Knowledge is power however that became inevitable. Altera vista 18:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

No I am not a Classicist, my background was Physics. However if you start digging deep enough you always will invariably end up at the same place. I quite agree with you, everything today is about money, even science, even the search for truth that inspired those who came before us. But there are some signs that are promising. I for one am quite impressed by the "Free Software Movement" (Eben Moglen for example) As Eben Moglen points out this is not free like in free beer but free as it belongs to the Common ( with capital letter) and from there , it seems to me is but a very small step to the Common Good the principle Socrates for example was searching for. I think this concept Should be expanded into other/ all areas of human activities. Periodically attempts in this direction are made, but they seem to drown and are not heard of again. This however seems to me no excuse not to try. Wikiversity attracted me as a possible platform to start again such a thing -- make knowledge, experiences, and insights etc practical in the spirit of " Search for the Greater Good " otherwise it is just more free beer. For this reason I am in the process of starting the project: " Designing for the Commons" here on wikiversity I am inexperienced in Computer "Things" thats one reason why it might be slow in getting going but again that is no excuse. In order to attract folks the quality has to be high, in other words it has to be valuable, it cannot be " Underwater Basket weaving" -- nobody gives a dam about..-- I worked in fluid dynamics and came up with the process of Dynamic Containment which I plan to use as a start. ( The picture / movie strips are just a start, no explanations yet , but it is coming be patient) The idea is to use technologies like this to develop actual useful applications collaboratively and free, that can stand up in the market place. I am convinced it can be done. I am also convinced if such practical attempts are anchored in what one might refer to as our Common humanistic inheritance it might influence enough folks so this thing we try to do will develop momentum on its own. I have no illusions that this will be easy or might even be successful, but that should not matter. Lewis Mumford expressed this more eloquently than I can Its taken from his book " The Condition of Man": ( These words accompany by a picture " Dawn at Lake George" by Alfred Stieglitz) "......the foreground is dark, and it will become darker before the day breaks. The purging of long accumulated poisons, the healing of ugly wounds, will not be done in a day: all this needs time,patience, resolute effort, and a willingness to forgo selfish local gains for the sake of a larger common good -- the unification of mankind and the replenishment of life. Nothing that is worth doing in our time will be done easily; that is , without a spiritual rebirth. Unless the blind recover their sight and the crippled learn to walk our very knowledge will slay us. No peace without struggle; no security without risk; no wholeness without simplification; no goods without measure; no love without sacrifice; no full life without the willingness to accept and transcend death in the very process of living. Those who have learned this lesson may build the City of Man." Altera vista 09:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

How is life?[edit]

ping ;-) ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 17:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


Just wanted to drop a little "Nice to meet you!" I just got through reading your post in the Semi-outing discussion, and thought I would take the time to introduce myself. I often fight bitterly on wiki's of various sorts, but try to keep a cool head even when fighting. If I can't, I simply leave as to not spoil the experience for others. I hope my arguments were not too extreme for your tastes. Thenub314 21:09, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any extremism in your answers. Nice to meet you too!--Daanschr 08:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)