Talk:Atlantis/Location Hypotheses

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Initial Discussion[edit]

Initial discussion that led to this page's creation may be found at Wikipedia:Talk:Azores. -- Dave Braunschweig (discusscontribs) 13:59, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Resources[edit]

- Sidelight12 Talk 07:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

migration of the Azores mantle plume from Newfoundland to the Azores...

Lithospheric melt under the Azores plateau

Rayleigh-Taylor instability

Questions[edit]

How far below sea level is the Azores Plateau? How much lower were sea levels 10,000B.C. or even 5,000B.C.? Is there a record of a landslide or tsunami in the Atlantic? Sidelight12 Talk 01:38, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

A source from Wikipedia claims the Azores Plateau is 1000 m or 3300 feet below the ocean surface. [1].

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 01:19, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

After more research I find it is only 650 feet or so today in many places. The surface is not level with lots of rifts and valleys. I should probably use the thumbnail...

Atlantic bathymetry

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 23:27, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

In fact, 

"Other off-axis elevated structures, located in the study area, share similarities with the Azores platform. For instance, both the Great Meteor group and the Milne seamounts display smooth topography. Some of these areas may have been subaerial at some times in the past. The shallowest parts of these structures correspond to elongated ridges comparable to the ridges associated with the islands in the Azores archipelago." [2] See Section 4.7 [21]

So, Sidelight12, this area is said to have been "subaerial", which means it was formed in the open air. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 17:43, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

LGM and Gulf Stream[edit]

I'd rather not make unexpected changes to the page, therefore I'm putting this into the discussion page.

Further to the Azores hypothesis, I believe you are overlooking a couple supporting points:

1) The weight of the glaciers on the continents. Consider the glacial mass of a 2-4 km of ice on top of Canada, the Great Lakes and New England regions of the US, Northern Europe, Northern Russia, and Northwest Siberia. This is equivalent to an ocean on top of the northern continents. Additional glacial weight would have been exerted on the southern Andes, and on mountains throughout the world. Here are a couple maps of the northern hemisphere during the Last Glacial Maximum circa 22,000 YA, and the relevant Wikipedia page:

http://www.qpg.geog.cam.ac.uk/images/WorldLGMm.jpg

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/images/iceage01.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum

2) Please note the glaciation was focused on the North Atlantic / North Sea region. This indicates that something was disrupting the Gulf Stream. Here's a couple maps of the stream-flow, and the relevant Wikipedia page:

http://dma.aq.upm.es/profesor/galan_p/investigacion/oceanos/imagenes/currents_north_atlantic.jpg

http://marine.coastal.edu/gulfstream/path.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream

Without the warm waters of the Caribbean reaching the Northern Atlantic, Europe would freeze, and the flow of frigid waters from the Labrador Sea would freeze the Atlantic coast of North America as far south as New York. Iceland is a large igneous province created by a plume (essentially a super-volcano) not a continental fragment, therefore if it was covered in a glacier several kilometres thick, it should sink under the weight. Magmatic displacement from both Iceland, and the continents to the east and west of the North Atlantic would have placed stress on the Mid-Atlantic Rise (MAR), as well as other volcanically active areas. Consider the information in the following article:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/supervolcanoes-erupt-by-t/

While the article is about super-volcanoes in general, the information is relevant to the MAR. If molten rock accumulated under the MAR its buoyancy would simply lift the MAR, as region only has water above it, which is both lighter than continental rock, and easily displaced.

Conclusion: Atlantis' rising and falling could be the cause of the repeated glaciations of the last few million years.

Entrepic (discusscontribs) 09:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Focus and nomination[edit]

This is simply a commendation of the intensity of focus of this resource. I noticed an extreme amount of dedication by its originator @Sidelight12 and @RAYLEIGH22 for making Atlantis a true learning project! I'm going to make some nominations based on this effort. CQ (discusscontribs) 12:38, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 03:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I would like to add a map from the following source to replace the one that I removed. The maps I want to use are more scientific illustrations. I am looking to come up with a calderal size that is research supported. This would illustrate a caldera under the Azores archipelago to support an eruption of VEI 8 or better. Although, with other factors emerging to support a final 2000 meter subsidence that could be something that occurred in stages, as the hypothesis of Atlantis in the Azores evolves in a scientific manner. The crust of the Azores Plateau is at least two times as thick as the sea floor surrounding it, just like a plug in a caldera might be.

Gravity anomalies and crustal signature of volcano-tectonic structures of Pico Island (Azores) - Scientific Figure on ResearchGate. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/248257023_fig1_Fig-1-General-geotectonic-framework-of-the-Azores-archipelago-adapted-from-Montesinos [accessed 6 Apr, 2016]

I am not sure how to go about it, but this illustration is a step in the right direction. My puropse would be to describe a process that may or may not be unique to this area of the world. It would be a modification of Wegener's continental drift theories.

I reeeally need some help on this. This diagram appears in several research publications in various forms.

Thanks,

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 03:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

ILL of articles[edit]

This is just an FYI. My local county library system lets me interlibrary loan (ILL) journal articles. They need the exact details: author list, title, journal name, volume, issue, month, year, pages first through last, and where you found the reference. I usually sign a statement (on their website) that I'm willing to pay up to 10 cents per page, but so far they haven't charged me a cent. Now I usually order only a few articles at most per year. You'd have to check with your local city or county library system. They are much better to work with than any university library. Universities charge way too much! --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 22:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


Climate Change[edit]

The controversy today over Climate Change is a significant argument in favor of Atlantis. The events that caused the Azores Plateau to be under the surface of the Atlantic undoubtedly caused immense changes in the Earth's Climate. If Plato's time frame is correct the demise of Atlantis occurred in the same period as the end of the last Ice Age. The relationship between these two has not been established but the chronological proximity of the two events cannot be denied.

This means that civilization was dealt two blows that mankind would have needed thousands of years from which to recover. The flooding of the lands adjacent to the oceans of the world would have drowned cities and ports throughout the world.

It is possible that some living today could see a modern version of this catastrophe unfold in their lifetimes.

http://climatenewsnetwork.net/antarctic-peaks-reveal-sea-rise-threat/

youtube video of significant Antarctic calving event.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/hC3VTgIPoGU?rel=0

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 12:44, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Maps available that show what the world and its climate were like 12,000 years ago[3].

References[edit]

  1. Ryall, J. C., Blanchard, M.-C., and Medioli, F., 1983, A subsided island west of Flores, Azores. Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences. vol. 20, pp. 764-775.
  2. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2003GC000527/full#ggge391-fig-0003
  3. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2630738/How-world-looked-ice-age-The-incredible-map-reveals-just-planet-changed-14-000-years.html

First review[edit]

Three ancient maps, public domain, were scanned by WMF intern Mitch Hoffman. Credit: Russell & Struthers Engravers, New York, 1883.{{free media}}
Scan shows the map from Ortelius "Parergon" published in 1624. Credit: Abraham Ortelius.{{free media}}
Note that Libya was the Cyrene peninsula. Credit: Unknown.{{fairuse}}
The image shows structures and a small Pyramide in Güímar, Teneriffa, the Canary Islands. Credit: Berthold Werner.{{free media}}
This bathymetric map of the Mediterranean Sea shows the likely surface above sea level during the last ice age in orange-brown. Credit: Jean Mascle & Georges Mascle, Geological and Morpho-Tectonic Map of the Mediterranean Domain, Digital Terrain Model (DTM), at 500m, DTM at 1500m GEBCO Atlas (General Bathymetric Chart of the Oceans), Morpho-bathymetric synthesis of the Mediterranean Sea, CIESM and IFREMER.{{fairuse}}
This Digital Elevation Model (250 m grid) is of the seabed of the Aegean Sea derived from the combination and reprocessing of swath bathymetry, GEBCO and single-beam echo-sounder data in the framework of DG MARE EMODNET Bathymetry project. Credit: Dimitris Sakellariou and Konstantina Tsampouraki-Kraounaki.{{fairuse}}

Hypothesis 1: Atlantis, or the Island of Atlantis, was located on the Azores Plateau.

"It is further supported by cutting edge geologic imaging methods using seismic imaging models that are being called seismic tomography. These methods use the seismic waves from earthquakes and computerized imaging algorithm techniques used in modern medicine. It is definitely cutting edge fringe science." Seismic tomography is not, nor should it be referred to as "fringe science". --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 00:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I concur. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 11:27, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

In the resource Paleanthropology are archaeological remains of a people called Guanches that apparently date back at least to 6,000 b2k. They are of Nordic appearance with the men averaging 7' tall from the Canary Islands. Other Nordic appearing peoples sparsely populated regions from Finland into Russia and Siberia to the Okhotsk Sea and the Ainu formerly of northern Japan. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 01:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The ancestors of the Ainu may date from >30,000 years ago. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 01:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

This race of people may have indeed been the the race from which the Atlanteans and the Guanches originated. I once read that Otto Muck had supposed that the Atlanteans resembled most closely the Basques from Portugal that were sailors. I will look up a reference if you are interested. Muck also stated that the Atlanteans had a red hue to their skin like the native Americans. I have also read that the Atlanteans were supposed to be a seafaring nation that established colonies throughout the world not unlike Great Britain. Remember, the climate change and the sea level rise part of the hypothesis insured that not only did the demise of Atlantis occur but also the colonies were no longer possessions of Atlantis as colonies. In addition, most of the settlements established by Atlantis as colonies would have been underwater and forgotten by Plato's time, 9000 years later.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 03:22, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

An alternative for the origin and location of "The "Great Plain" of Atlantis - was it in Doggerland?" authored by Jean Deruelle in 1999 has been described in North Sea continental shelves. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 02:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Was the Plain of Atlantis in Doggerland? In Plato's Timaeus[1] it is clearly stated that Atlantis was an island located in the Atlantic in front of the strait called Pillars of Heracles. (Approximately the 40th paragraph counting each statement of the dialogue a separate paragraph.) It was a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia. Doggerland was connected to Europe by land as late as 8000 BCE.[2] Therefore, since the Atlanis Location hypothesis establishes the demise of the island of Atlantis as approximately 12,000 BCE, then, Atlantis as a world power would have made an expedition and subjugated Europe and therefore Doggerland which was clearly connected by land and therefore a part of Europe, which was by that time subjugated or conquered by Atlantis as told in Plato's Timaeus[3].

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 03:22, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Here's the full quote: "This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia."[4] The phrase: "there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles" suggests that Island of Atlantis was not beyond the Pillars of Heracles but within the far western Mediterranean, although "parts of the continent" suggests that the island ruled part of the continent beyond the Pillars and Straits of Heracles which too might have been called Atlantis. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 05:06, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Again, the phrase "...in front of..." can be taken two ways. It can mean "beyond" or it can mean "before". In the context of Timaeus we find that Timaeus has consistently implied that "in front of means "beyond" and not "before" because he refers to Europe which Atlantis has conquered and subjugated. Clearly, Atlantis, the country, not the city, is a city-state system not unlike a democracy in Greece in later times, that reminds one of what the United States is now, but with some important differences. Each "Kingdom" in Atlantis is a feudal system but the feudal systems make up a city-state system like Greece in later times. The military might of Atlantis depends upon these structures to form it's military. Just as American armed forces consist of soldiers from every state. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 04:38, 5 July 2017 (UTC) If you will look at the elevations that existed 12,000 years ago and compare them with this statement from Timaeus...

'for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

You will find that the Straits of Heracles was at that time a narrow, somewhat shallow entrance to what is now called the Mediterranean Sea. Since that time the changes occurred, it has became wider and deeper. That is why the straits were said to be un-navigable. They were easily obstructed in that time. They are not easily obstructed now.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 13:35, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

In "front of of the Pillars of Heracles" may be taken two ways. In context of the rest of Timaeus the meaning would be in the Atlantic.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 14:26, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


Plato does not refer to the Azores but states in "Critias" or "Concerning Atlantis", "a common war arose 9,000 years ago between the nations on this side of the Pillars of Heracles and the nations coming from beyond." Pierre Termier describes the Azores and most aspects of the Mid-Atlantic ridge from Iceland to the south Atlantic. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 03:49, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

We are still not sure of all of the area that encompassed Atlantis except the main island was the Azores plateau. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 14:26, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


Do you have a reference that verifies "written records of Atlantis handed down from Plato that places the end of Atlantis in the Atlantic approximately 12,000 years ago around the area of the Azores archipelago.", specifically the phrase "around the area of the Azores archipelago." I may have missed it, but I can't find anything so far here that Plato meant any place more precisely located than "nations coming from beyond [the Pillars of Hercules]." --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 04:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Plato died in 347 B.C.E. It is 2017. 2017 + 347 = 2454. 2454 + 9000 (9000 years before was the war that was described by Plato) = 11,454 or, approximately 12,000 years total. [5] RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 11:27, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, the PNAS article from 1917 by Charles Schuchert contains a lot of information about Pierre Termier's interest in the Azores then near the end actually directs reader's attention to a region south west of Gibraltar. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 04:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding hypothesis 1: you have not presented any direct evidence that Atlantis was located on the Azores Plateau. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 04:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Just FYI but there is an Atlantis map about the Azores plateau on this website dating from 22 June 2009. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 22:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Here is a map; https://ancientpatriarchs.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/atlantis-location-map600.jpg

Not sure how old it is but it is pretty much what I am describing.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 21:14, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Resources[edit]

Regarding Wikiversity Atlantis Location Hypothesis

The resources you ask for are found here

- Sidelight12 Talk 07:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Taken from...

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Talk:Atlantis/Location_Hypotheses

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 02:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

None of the above contains any direct evidence that Plato indicated the Azores as Atlantis! --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 02:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Marshallsumter, this is a moot argument. The Azores archipelago was not called the Azores archipelago in Plato's time. It was called the Island of Atlantis. With all due respect, asking for direct evidence that Plato called the Azores Atlantis is like saying that Illinois is not in North America because I do not have direct evidence that Christopher Columbus called Illinois North America.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 03:22, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I understand. I read all of those Resources, nada! But many explorers were in North America before the Illini (native Americans after which Illinois was named) and long before Christopher Columbus. But, whom do we have in Greece before those whose evidence was past on to Plato?

Actually the full quote above suggests Plato did specify the Island of Atlantis as apparently in front of the Pillars and Straits of Heracles "and was the way to other islands" like perhaps those now called the Azores and the Canary Islands. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 05:06, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Or, perhaps those islands called the Lesser Antilles, Cuba, Bermuda, Jamacia, and so on and so forth. There area would have been much greater before the sea level rise. Also, since Atlantis was arguably a nation that subjugated land and people and practiced colonialism, there were many places that are now underwater that were colonies of Atlantis. Perhaps even Doggerland.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 16:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Are you supporting your hypothesis with another hypothesis? What in addition to possible context do you have that the Island of Atlantis was not on Plato's side of the Pillars of Hercules? The bathymetric map of the western end of the Mediterranean shows a large island ridge that may have been above sea level during the last ice age. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 16:25, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
What I am getting at is for you to support each step with facts. Plato and his sources were Greece or at in the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea. Geographically speaking, start there, add description, then facts supported by references. For example, "Pillars of Herecles" is what the "Strait of Gibralter" would have looked like during the last ice age. Reference Plato's writings where it mentions this, followed by a detailed bathymetric map showing this. Next, text about "Island of Atlantis", including "and there was an island situated in front of the straits". The bathemetric maps show a large island ridge inside the Mediterranean immediately "in front of" the "Pillars of Heracles". Present referenced facts that this large island is not, or is Atlantis. Libya and Asia were once labeled as small locations. One was a small piece of land just west of Egypt, the other part of eastern Turkey. I'll see if I can re-find the maps. Bathymetric maps of just west of the "Pillars of Hercules" show nothing immediately in front of the pillars. How do you step by cited step get about 1/3rd across the Atlantic to the Azores? --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 15:43, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
I haven't found the Libya map yet but the one on the right suggests what I mean by Libya was much smaller. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 16:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

For archaeological evidence, use past written descriptions and factual images like the one fourth down on the right. Here's some stated facts: "Another corroboration of the truth of Plato's narrative is found in the fact that upon the Azores black lava rocks, and rocks red and white in color are now found. He says they built with white, red, and black stone."[1] p. 21

"Suppose we were to find in mid-Atlantic, in front of the Mediterranean, in the neighborhood of the Azores, the remains of an immense island, sunk beneath the sea-one thousand miles in width, and two or three thousand miles long-would it not go far to confirm the statement of Plato that, "beyond the strait where you place the Pillars of Hercules, there was an island larger than Asia (Minor) and Libya combined," called Atlantis?"[1] p.39 --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 18:53, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

"Then he [Plato] describes the cradle of the Atlantic race; a plain located near the sea and opening in the central part of the island, and the most fertile of plains; about it a circle of mountains stretching to the sea, a circle open at the center and protecting the plain from the icy blasts of the north; in these superb mountains, numerous villages, rich and populous; in the plain, a magnificent city, the palaces and temples of which are constructed from stones of three colors—white, black, and red—drawn from the very bosom of the island; here and there mines yielding all the metals useful to man; finally the shores of the island cut perpendicularly and commanding from above the tumultuous sea. [4]"[2] --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 14:27, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

"This description tallies well with what we would imagine to-day of a great land submerged in the region of the Azores and enjoying the eternal springtime, which is the endowment of these islands; a land formed from a basement of ancient rocks bearing, with some fragments of whitish calcareous terranes, extinct volcanic mountains and lava flows, black or red, long since grown cold."[2] Termier connects Atlantis with the Azores using three facts: size, beyond the Pillars of Hercules, and the presence of the three types of rock (black, white, and red). --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 14:35, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

In your article, you haven't mentioned the rocks and you haven't mentioned the size, but you have mentioned the Pillars. You need to mention and cite the remaining two. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 14:42, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
The image fifth down on the right shows those subsurface areas in orange-brown like the other bathymetric maps that was likely above sea level during the last ice age. This is possibly what the Mediterranean looked like to the Atlanteans and those ancient Egyptians and Greeks. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 00:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
The sixth image down on the right is a 2016 bathymetric map of the Aegean Sea floor. Contours are 250 m each. The reddest is at 250 m, the next two lighter reds or oranges are 500 m and 750 m, and the yellow starts at 1,000 m. This is a close-up view of what is in the fifth image down on the right. Compare these with the image from Commons File:Aegean Sea map bathymetry-fr.jpg which is free to use. If you think one of the others is better, you may be able to get permission from the authors to use their image or a portion of it. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 04:11, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Second review[edit]

The image is a map of known supervolcanoes around the World. Credit: Maphobbyist.
This view of the topography over Campi Flegrei shows the relative relief caused by volcanic remnants. Credit: MeteoWeb.
The trail of "supervolcanic" eruptions across the state of Idaho and through the Rockies is known as the Snake River Plain. Credit: Paul Link, Idaho State University (ISU).

Hypothesis 2: an ultra-colossal, or apocalyptic eruption (VEI 8), or mega-colossal (VEI 7) eruption type volcano, popularly called "supervolcano", exists under the Azores microplate.

"This is especially true since the descriptions of Plato, the end of the most recent ice age, climate change science and the discovery of the existence of what is being termed "Supervolcanoes" all over the world seems to be fitting together to help to supply scientific evidence to Plato's story." See above map.

Per the map above, there are no known supervolcanoes anywhere near the Atlantic Ocean let alone the Mid-Atlantic Ridge! --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 05:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The map does not identify any super volcanoes on the floor of any ocean in the world. Super volcanoes occur and operate by different rules on the ocean floor.[6]

This research documents how the "hotspot" or mantle plume has migrated across the floor of the Atlantic to itspresent location in the Azores. Again, these "seamouts" are volcanoes that are no longer active because the crust of the Earth has moved away from them leaving a seamount in the ocean floor. You can follow this hotspot in its migration from Newfoundland to its present location in the Azores. http://bulletin.geoscienceworld.org/content/119/5-6/712 This is a similar description to the Yellowstone hotspot migrating across the upper northwest of America. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 12:39, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually, like the Azores it shows the islands of Indonesia and those south of Japan! But, the latter are in two oceans and recognized "supervolcanoes". I've added the image third down on the right of the Yellowstone "supervolcano" for additional size comparisons. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 16:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

A far simpler explanation for the sinking of the Azores Volcanic Plateau is that it is above the junction of three portions of the Mid-Atlantic ridge system as they spread apart, down it goes. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 23:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


Usually there is a reason why disasters occur. Plato never described an earthquake or a volcano eruption. But if the eruption was on the ocean floor the storyteller would not have any way to know that in those primitive days. They would, however, if a flood went along with it. In case you did not get to see my recent research find about a flood source, here it is again.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025322716301244 Research regarding Iberian Peninsula seamounts history of mega-tsunami RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs)


But the arguments put forth by Entripic more or less describes what you are describing, Marshallsumter.[7]


The vast majority of seismic events are along the Azores islands trending WNW to ESE.[3] An Azores microplate is stated.[3]

The Azores microplate is the lithosphere that is above the super volcano caldera.

With the discovery of a Supervolcano near Vesuvius, These volcanoes are not rare. But people still build castles and cities on top of the 'plugs' in their vents...

http://volcanocafe.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/italien-ischia-castello-aragonese.png

What a gorgeous castle. Just like the main castle Plato described...

http://web.archive.org/web/20131021184156/http://volcanocafe.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/castello-arragonese.jpg?w=700 RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 04:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The studies of Doggerland and the Azores microplate, as well as the Azores Volcanic Plateau are not "fringe science"! I concur RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 04:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

A general, overall Azores Plateau caldera has not been mentioned, many calderas associated with the volcanic islands have been. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 01:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Did you see the trail of seamounts from Newfoundland to the Azores? This is the hotspot migrating. Or, rather, it is the tectonic plate migrating across the hot spot creating new mantle plumes that each die off after creating a new seamount as it goes. This results in a series of seamounts marking the migration path. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2003GC000527/full

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 16:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

The Azores mantle plume or plumes were west of the tri-junction way in the past and may have built up a substantial grouping of islands or near, or above surface plateaus. Your reference Hotspots and Mantle Plumes shows a trail of seamounts from off the coast of Newfoundland to its current location east of the tri-junction. If this plume built up the Azores Plateau while west of the tri-junction, that plateau will fracture and sink as the tri-juntion moves underneath. If some of these islands were occupied by the same people that occupied the Canary Islands, for which there is a great deal of archaeological evidence, and these seafaring peoples often journeyed into the Mediterranean, then perhaps they were all called Atlantians by some. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 02:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding hypothesis 2 you have provided no evidence for a supervolcano under the Azores Plateau. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 02:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

"According to the article describing this research the so-called Azores plateau is a supervolcano just as any other underwater plateau.[56]." This statement is false! Reference [56] does NOT state "so-called Azores plateau is a supervolcano"! --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 19:30, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

No, the statement is not false. [4] [5] [6] [7]

On the right is an image from space of the supervolcano Campi Flegrei. Something like this would go a long way toward proving your hypothesis. Sorry, forgot to sign! --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 20:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

[8]

Somebody posted about Campi Flegrei but then said there is no supervolcano in the Azores. Well, it might still be debatable, but I can tell you the Azores have been rumbling a LOT longer.


Check out the landscape. It is not satellite, but I bet we can find some of the Azores islands that put Campi Flegeri to shame.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pictures+of+the+Azores&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9ur7W_LrVAhVJ7oMKHY2lCWMQ7AkIQA&biw=1079&bih=739

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 11:39, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/749338/Italy-volcano-eruption-2017-Naples-Campi-Flegrei

Furthermore, if the Azores did not have a minimum of 3,300 feet of water around them, they may have blown again before now. Did you run across the reference in the azores location hypothesis where the volcano erupted on the ocean floor just west of America northwest and NOBODY NOTICED? The reference is there...

Marshall, if you want to move the talk page, go right ahead. It would be nice to archive what is already there though. You have my permission to do it all as time permits. I have been formulating and teaching myself about this for about 8 years now, on and off. Just got my PhD in 2012.

Thanks for your help and patience. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 17:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, what I'm suggesting is that you use the techniques available that geologists or volcanologists have used to offer direct measurements to prove your hypothesis that the calderas of the current Azores matches that of a supervolcano. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 16:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps a table of physical values comparing the Yellowstone VEI 8 and magma plume with the Azores calderas and magma plume(s) would demonstrate your hypothesis in one concise location in your submission. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 18:39, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Re: Atlantis,

Maybe I should just go with the ending of the ice age.

https://www.britannica.com/media/full/41191/610

As this map clearly shows the whole of the Mid-Atlantic ridge AND the whole Azores Plateau is no more than 200 Meters deep.

The reference of 330 Meters sea level rise after the last ice age means that 12,000 years ago, the whole area was at least 130 meters above the sea level. That's 390 feet or almost 400 feet.

When you add Entripic's rebound after the ice age it is easy to see that Atlantis was EXACTLY where Plato put it.

Of course, there were many volcanic eruptions on the Azores Plateau at that time. Looks like we do not need a supervolcano, but I still believe one to be there.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 18:51, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Over "long durations of intrusions (greater than 105 to 106 yr), extensive lower crustal mush zones develop, which modify the thermal budget of the upper crust and reduce the flux of magma required to sustain upper crustal magma reservoirs. [...] Young igneous provinces (less than a few hundred thousand years old) are unlikely to support large upper crustal reservoirs, whereas longer-lived systems (active for longer than 1 million years) can accumulate magma and build reservoirs capable of producing super-eruptions, even with intrusion rates smaller than 10−3 to 10−2 km3 yr−1. Hence, total duration of magmatism should be combined with the magma intrusion rates to assess the capability of volcanic systems to form the largest explosive eruptions on Earth."[9] Sorry! Forgot to sign! The key fact is the long intrusive duration (active for longer than 1 million years). --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 21:40, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

"The mapping of S-wave negative velocity anomalies in various models reveals a negative anomaly beneath the Azores confined within the upper 250–300 km. Considering the time evolution of a plume, this low-velocity anomaly might be the signature of a present-day dying plume, which created the Azores plateau 20 Ma ago."[10] In terms of magma plume longevity, the Azores magma plume qualifies as a potential source of a VEI 8 eruption, at least before the present.

"Low-density bodies are located on the NW flanks of Pico Mountain, along a linear ENE trending structure. These bodies extend to depths of 4 km and have a total volume of 69 km3. They are interpreted as being associated with an "old" extensional fracture zone. Previous studies suggested the existence of a shallow and large magma reservoir (with volumes up to 1000 km3) beneath Pico Mountain volcano. In this study we have not found any evidence of the existence of such huge magma body. On the contrary, we propose that those discrete low-density bodies correspond to complex intersections of different sets of tectonic lineaments, along which magma tends to intrude, as shallow (2–5 km) and small (10–20 km3) magma pockets."[11] --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 22:24, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

The "thermal history of individual zircon crystals from an eruption of the [super volcano] Taupo Volcanic Zone, New Zealand [...] show that although zircons resided in the magmatic system for 103 to 105 years, they experienced temperatures >650° to 750°C for only years to centuries. This implies near-solidus long-term crystal storage, punctuated by rapid heating and cooling. Reconciling these data with existing models of magma storage requires considering multiple small intrusions and multiple spatial scales".[12] --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 04:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. 1.0 1.1 Ignatius Donnelly (2006). Egerton Sykes. ed. Atlantis: The Antediluvian World. San Diego, California USA: Book Tree. pp. 384. ISBN 978-1-58509-268-0. https://books.google.com/books?id=r9Tbuy7TxN4C&dq=%22Atlantis:+The+Antediluvian+World%22&source=gbs_navlinks_s. Retrieved 2017-06-02. 
  2. 2.0 2.1 Pierre Termier (30 November 1912). "Atlantis". Jason Colavito, The lecture was published in French in 1913 and translated into English in 1915 for the Smithsonian Institution, which published it in its Annual Report for 1915 (published 1916). Retrieved 2017-06-02. 
  3. 3.0 3.1 J. M. Miranda, L. A. Mendes Victor, J. Z. Simões, J. F. Luis L. Matias, H. Shimamura, H. Shiobara, H Nemoto, H. Mochizuki, A. Hirn, J. C. Lépine (May 1998). "Tectonic setting of the Azores Plateau deduced from a OBS survey". Marine Geophysical Researches 20 (3): 171–182. doi:10.1023/A:1004622825210. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Matias_Luis/publication/225246258_Tectonic_setting_of_the_Azores_Plateau_deduced_from_a_OBS_survey/links/53ea386b0cf2dc24b3cb171f.pdf. Retrieved 2017-04-25. 
  4. https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=116706
  5. http://www.livescience.com/39447-biggest-volcano-earth-found.html
  6. http://www.livescience.com/6328-ancient-supervolcano-created-giant-underwater-mountain-chain.html
  7. https://www.google.com/search?q=large+underwater+plateaus+are+super+volcanoes&biw=1280&bih=590&tbm=isch&imgil=X6hmiJA7kfo54M%253A%253Bv45A7DETNxL4YM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fnews.nationalgeographic.com%25252Fnews%25252F2013%25252F09%25252F130905-tamu-massif-shatsky-rise-largest-volcano-oceanography-science%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=X6hmiJA7kfo54M%253A%252Cv45A7DETNxL4YM%252C_&usg=__ayq41bJamGvHlLMVsx2gOFXt7EI%3D#q=large+underwater+plateaus+are+super+volcanoes&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CaYcan3uI934IjiMMyIR3fjjUTfNi2jUDRaf_1nLlSxMmFg0BIxHN9CWa9sIbvwiHqAVdkVTIMPxY-png-ymmuLWTuioSCYwzIhHd-ONREUalOWqWN5lYKhIJN82LaNQNFp8Rm7AvVGJJsEwqEgn-cuVLEyYWDRGDZk3QjcdwvyoSCQEjEc30JZr2EY-C86DKdi_11KhIJwhu_1CIeoBV0RceWUBKoa8HwqEgmRVMgw_1Fj6mRGnAFi3yAMsrSoSCeD7Kaa4tZO6EXtYtfHeWlw2
  8. https://www.google.com/search?q=large+underwater+plateaus+are+super+volcanoes&biw=1280&bih=590&tbm=isch&imgil=X6hmiJA7kfo54M%253A%253Bv45A7DETNxL4YM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fnews.nationalgeographic.com%25252Fnews%25252F2013%25252F09%25252F130905-tamu-massif-shatsky-rise-largest-volcano-oceanography-science%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=X6hmiJA7kfo54M%253A%252Cv45A7DETNxL4YM%252C_&usg=__ayq41bJamGvHlLMVsx2gOFXt7EI%3D#q=large+underwater+plateaus+are+super+volcanoes&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CaYcan3uI934IjiMMyIR3fjjUTfNi2jUDRaf_1nLlSxMmFg0BIxHN9CWa9sIbvwiHqAVdkVTIMPxY-png-ymmuLWTuioSCYwzIhHd-ONREUalOWqWN5lYKhIJN82LaNQNFp8Rm7AvVGJJsEwqEgn-cuVLEyYWDRGDZk3QjcdwvyoSCQEjEc30JZr2EY-C86DKdi_11KhIJwhu_1CIeoBV0RceWUBKoa8HwqEgmRVMgw_1Fj6mRGnAFi3yAMsrSoSCeD7Kaa4tZO6EXtYtfHeWlw2
  9. Ozge Karakas, Wim Degruyter, Olivier Bachmann & Josef Dufek (2017). "Lifetime and size of shallow magma bodies controlled by crustal-scale magmatism". Nature Geoscience 10 (6): 446–450. doi:10.1038/ngeo2959. http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v10/n6/full/ngeo2959.html. Retrieved 2017-06-07. 
  10. Graça Silveira, Eléonore Stutzmann, Anne Davaille, Jean-Paul Montagner, L. Mendes-Victor, Amal Sebai (1 August 2006). "Azores hotspot signature in the upper mantle". Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research 156 (1–2): 23-34. doi:10.1016/j.jvolgeores.2006.03.022. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0377027306001296?via%3Dihub. Retrieved 2017-06-08. 
  11. João C. Nunes, Antonio Camacho, Zilda França, Fuensanta G. Montesinos, Madalena Alves, Ricardo Vieira, Emilio Velez, Ester Ortiz (1 August 2006). "Gravity anomalies and crustal signature of volcano-tectonic structures of Pico Island (Azores)". Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research 156 (1–2): 55-70. doi:10.1016/j.jvolgeores.2006.03.023. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0377027306001260. Retrieved 2017-06-08. 
  12. Allison E. Rubin, Kari M. Cooper, Christy B. Till, Adam J. R. Kent, Fidel Costa, Maitrayee Bose, Darren Gravley, Chad Deering, and Jim Cole (16 June 2017). "Rapid cooling and cold storage in a silicic magma reservoir recorded in individual crystals". Science 356 (6343): 1154-1156. doi:10.1126/science.aam8720. http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6343/1154. Retrieved 2017-06-15. 

Third review[edit]

Shown is the outline of the continents after a sea level reduction of 130 meters, the positions of continental ice sheets and winter sea ice, and the change in sea surface temperatures across the oceans (CLIMAP 1981). Credit: Robert A. Rohde.
This image shows the hypothetical sea level of about 460 m (1500 ft) in light gray for the Gulf of Mexico. Credit: David Bice.
Warm, salty waters of the tropical Atlantic circulate north to the sub-polar regions of the North Atlantic via the Gulf Stream (dark blue arrows). Credit: Matthew W. Schmidt (Department of Oceanography, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX) & Jennifer E. Hertzberg (Department of Oceanography, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX).

Hypothesis 3: The sinking of the Azores Plateau was responsible for the end of the most recent ice age.

"The correlation is astonishing, because it implies that the dramatic climate changes during the first more than 50 kyrs of the glaciation elapsed nearly in parallel on both sides of the North Atlantic Ocean, presumably controlled by varying sea ice cover. Thus, the Gulf Stream was not just deflected toward North Africa in cold periods, it was rather turned off."[1]

Regarding hypothesis 3 you have provided no evidence that a significant portion of the Azores flood basalt Plateau was ever close enough or above sea level for any period so as to stop or deflect the North Atlantic Current to cause the last major glaciation. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 14:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

As shown in the Iberian margins, sea level during the last major glaciation may have been at or just above the yellow band on these bathymetry maps indicating a large number of islands outside the pillars of Hercules as well as the Azores microplate were near or just above sea level. Apparently, these did not sink but may have been submerged or more so as the glaciers began to melt. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 21:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Your reference [48] indicated that the top of the Atlantis seamount was around 180 fathoms deep now but was above sea level during the last ice age. 180 fathoms x 1.8288 m/fathom = 330 m. That's one datum for how much sea level has risen after the ice melted. Above the yellow band on the bathymetric maps is the top 1,000 m of the orange-brown band. A depth of 330 m would put a good portion of the Azores microplate near or above sea level during the last ice age. It may not have had to sink at all just become submerged by ice melting. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 13:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

As the map on the right demonstrates there was apparently more ice on Antarctica and around it than in the northern hemisphere during the last glacial maximum. This ice apparently started melting around 12-14,000 b2k in the Antarctic whereas the ice in the northern hemisphere started melting about 18-20,000 b2k. This suggests that the submergence of the Azores microplate started much sooner about 18-20,000 b2k or was more due to Antarctic melting than Arctic melting. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 03:04, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps there was no Gulfstream before the Antarctica melt because there was not enough water in the Atlantic basin. As the Ice melted in Antarctica the Atlantic basin got enough water to start the gulf stream flowing. I tend to hold the volcanic super-eruption occurred because of the earthquake activity even today[2] and the extinctions[3], in particular the climate changing fast enough to entomb woolly mammoths in Siberia. RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 14:59, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

The second image down on the right shows the 120 m black line for sea level about the last glacial maximum (20,000 years ago). The light gray area corresponds to the 1500 ft or 460 m depth that may have been the sea level for the glacial maximum during the last 50 kyrs. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 17:04, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The Pygmy mammoth lived on some of the northern channel islands off the coast of California. They may have gotten to the islands by swimming during the last 50 kyrs or walked there as Columbian mammoths. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 17:38, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The third image shows the current path of the North Atlantic Current (Gulf Stream). It passes way west of the Azores microplate, but in the article the authors model the oceanic extent of the ice during the last glaciation. It is still west of the microplate but a lot closer. If the microplate was near or above sea level during the last 50 kyrs it may have shut off or reduced the current.

Anthropocene

"Since this transition to food production occurred immediately following the Pleistocene–Holocene boundary, the Anthropocene can be considered as being coeval with the Holocene, resolving the contentious "golden spike" debate over whether existing standards can be satisfied for recognition of a new geological epoch."[4]

While it's likely that mentioning "global warming" will increase your article's readership, I see little reason to discuss the Anthropocene. Most likely it is coincident with the Holocene. Although populations during the last ice age may have been large enough that their activity began the melting.

References[edit]

  1. Willi Dansgaard (2005). The Department of Geophysics of The Niels Bohr Institute for Astronomy, Physics and Geophysics at The University of Copenhagen, Denmark. ed. Frozen Annals Greenland Ice Cap Research. Copenhagen, Denmark: Niels Bohr Institute. pp. 123. ISBN 87-990078-0-0. http://www.iceandclimate.nbi.ku.dk/publications/FrozenAnnals.pdf/. Retrieved 2014-10-05. 
  2. http://www.cvarg.azores.gov.pt/seismic/index.html
  3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_animals_extinct_in_the_Holocene
  4. Bruce D. Smith and Melinda A. Zeder (December 2013). "The onset of the Anthropocene". Anthropocene 4: 8-13. doi:10.1016/j.ancene.2013.05.001. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213305413000052. Retrieved 2017-05-26. 


Your reference to the Gulfstream not being deflected to North Africa but instead turned off arouses my curiosity regarding the climate change in the Sahara that resulted in it becoming desert as it is today. I understand that the ruins in the desert sands are from that period. It has also been stated that the Sphinx could date to the time when Egypt had a wetter climate[1].

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 11:59, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

First review summary[edit]

Editorial comments:

  1. As Sidelight12 and 63.134.186.84 have been significant contributors, they should be co-authors.
  2. The introduction is too long!
  3. The connection of the many sections to the hypotheses is poorly established.
  4. The format of the References is inappropriate and incomplete.
  5. "B.C. Heezen et. al. reports that at 37 degrees North the Atlantis seamount located on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is flat topped at a depth of around 180 fathoms and has a current-rippled sand and or cobbles. Around a ton of limestone cobbles were brought up from the summit a sample of which gave a radio-carbon date of 12,000+/- 900 years. B.C. Heezen and colleagues states that that the limestone was lithified in a location above the water and that his is evidence that the seamount had once been an island but was submerged in the last 12,000 years" to "At 37 degrees North the Atlantis seamount located on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is flat topped at a depth of around 180 fathoms and has a surface layer of current-rippled sand and or cobbles.[48] Around a ton of limestone cobbles were brought up from the summit, a sample of which gave a radio-carbon date of 12,000 +/- 900 years.[48] The limestone was lithified in a location above the water as evidence that the seamount had once been an island but was submerged in the last 12,000 years.[48]" --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 13:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  6. Hypotheses or conjectures are the beginning of applying the scientific method. Those who conduct the science of fringe science have asked that the derogatory form not be used under any circumstances, please feel free to remove all of them. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 02:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  7. "Wikipedia gives a list of mass extinctions 11,000 years ago in North Anerica[18]" needs a period. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 02:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  8. Comments like "Thanks, Entrepic, for your contribution. Sorry it took me so long to find it." are better rephrased in an acknowledgments section after your conclusions section, or include the user as a co-author. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 03:13, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  9. There are many manuscript entries such as "RAYLEIGH22 (discuss • contribs) 18:04, 19 January 2016 (UTC)", these are already preserved in the article's history and are not appropriate in a publishable science article. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 03:20, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  10. The sentence "Plato, on the other hand, was an idealist who looked to theory rather than evidence. Therefore, he was more likely to rely on the historical and ideological evidence of the oral folklore tradition." Evidence is evidence, an idealist who looks to theory or conjecture may ignore evidence completely. Is this paragraph necessary for your article? --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 03:29, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The above sections: First review, Second review and Third review address the shortcomings of each hypothesis.

The location given by Plato as "beyond the pillars of Hercules" precludes the need to guess where Atlantis was.

I recommend against publication until these concerns are appropriately addressed. --Marshallsumter (discusscontribs) 17:13, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I am going to overhaul the Atlantis Location Hypothesis to comply with the evaluation. I have notified Sidelight22, as he is to be a co-author. Believe me, I need all the help that I can get. Yours is appreciated.

RAYLEIGH22 (discusscontribs) 12:08, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

The list of submittals can be found at WikiJournal of Science/Contribute. Each submittal has a Discuss page where the reviews can be found.

http://ovga.centrosciencia.azores.gov.pt/sites/default/files/40-Art%C2%BA-Construction-and-destruction-of-a-volcanic-island-developed-inside-an-oceanic-rift.pdf

  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis