Wikiversity talk:Interlingual Beta Club

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CQ's original post at the English Wikiversity Colloquium :

I have been pathetically monolingual since I was in the first grade. I've been challenged to learn a different language for years, but I must admit, it's intimidating as all getout. I've been on this quest for a while,but since I joined V:, it all seems a bit more plausible now. I started with a little "multilingual worksheet" approaching the task (of translating the Pen Pal Wiki) with a "holistic" strategy hoping for some university-styled guidance. It has escalated into an all-out offensive against isolation and the feeling of utter helplessness culminating in this attempt to employ some interlingual dialog. CQ 15:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I guess I'd like to help...

...but perhaps what we need is just a set of assignments to translate and willing translators to take them on. You could even prod we multilinguals by making some form of "unfree knowledge" anti-barnstar on their talk pages. Evil, but who knows. If you want Japanese or French translated, I'll give it a go. I don't read Japanese as well as I speak it tho.--Dnjkirk 17:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not clear at all on what the "unfree knowledge" anti-barnstar might be, but any help on Japanese or French translation will be appreciated. CQ 05:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interlingual navigation

We now have a French version of Wikiversity. I think it's time now to start building some interlingual navigation for building common context. A good place to start I think, is to become familiar with the main, welcome and colloquium pages, so I started making these templates:

  1. {{InterlingualMainNavEn}}
  2. {{InterlingualMainNavDe}}
  3. {{InterlingualMainNavEs}}
  4. {{InterlingualMainNavFr}}

{{InterlingualMainNavEn}}:

Interlingual Wikiversity main navigation table
Language Main Page Welcome page Colloquium
English Main Page Welcome Colloquium
Deutsch Hauptseite Willkommen Cafeteria
Español Portada Bienvenido Claustro Wikiversitario
Français Accueil Bienvenue Colloque

Please lend me a hand on checking the templates establishing harbingers on the other Wikversity version sites using native language page titles, "Wikiversity:Interlingual Beta Club" and "[[Wikiversity translations is a community service project to support Wikiversity Beta and to promote Multilingualism and Interlingual discourse

Rosetta Stone.jpg

[edit] Summary

The Wikiversity Beta website coordinates all of the Wikiversity projects for speakers of different languages. This coordination is guided by the Wikiversity mission that was approved by the Wikimedia Foundation.

The Wikiversity Beta website is a central location for discussion of general guidelines for all Wikiversities. The prime example:

The Board of Trustees has requested that the Wikiversity community develops a policy for original research during the first six months of the project. This pesents the dreaded (conceptualization) of the deadline. So where on the Wikiversity Roadmap is this presumed "dead line"? Who gives a *** ??? fig

Wikiversity Beta is an incubator for new Wikiversities in several languages. Wikiversity Beta needs help translating documents into the many different languages spoken and written by Wikiversity participants (Wikiversitans).

Likewise many documents in many languages need to be written and translated into English, German, Spanish, Portugese, Korean, Chinese, Hawaiian, Cherokee and Klingon... for this Wikiversity.

A Wikiversity Beta support network called the Wikiversity:Interlingual Beta Club (IBC) has been framed (from the grass roots, in the spirit of your Beta Club back on Earth. (...but out here your As and Bs come from within you.)

[edit] Goals

This learning project offers learnings activities that give participants experience in performing translations. Experienced translators are providing comparitive texts, descriptions of the tools of the trade, (machine translation, computer-assisted translation, etc. ) and are there to "show you the ropes" of the Art / Science of Translation.

Right now (24 October 2006) There is a draft version of a Translator's Handbook being worked on collaboratively by the IBC and the Translation Taskforce. The new Translation learning group is starting up a three-language program to translate documents between English, German and Spanish.

Translation
 Wikiversity translators
Translation Dept. - Multilingual Studies
German
{{deu}}		 German-English
{{Translator deu-eng}}		 German-Spanish
{{Translator deu-spa}}
English
{{eng}}		 English-German
{{Translator eng-deu}}		 English-Spanish
{{Translator eng-spa}}
Spanish
{{spa}}		 Spanish-German
{{Translator spa-deu}}		 Spanish-English
{{Translator spa-eng}}

[edit] Learning materials

File:Crystal 128 fonts.png
Translation Taskforce


[edit] Activities

[edit] Translation requests

  • High priority German to English (source)

Ich stimme Purodha zu und möchte für eine generelle Freigabe der original research / empirischen Forschung anführen, das deren Regeln entscheidend sind: jede empirische Forschung sollte nicht nur vom Ergebnis, sondern auch von der Beschreibung der Durchführung bzw. der Herkunft der Ergebnisse so präzise dokumentiert sein, das sie eindeutig reproduziert werden kann. Umgekehrt: Ein Versuch, der aufgrund ungenauer Beschreibung nicht reproduziert werden kann, falsifiziert das Ergebnis des ersten Versuches ebenso wie ein abweichendes Ergebnis bei präziser Wiederholung. Dietrich 18:09, 12. Nov 2006 (CEST)

    • Machine translation (needs human attention!):
    • I agree Purodha and would like for a general release of the original research / research of empirical cite, that are its rules decisively: each empirical research should be documented not only by the result, but rather also by the description of the execution and/or the origin of the results so precise, unambiguously reproduced will can that it. Reversed: An attempt, that cannot be reproduced based on inexact description, falsifiziert the result of the first attempt just as as a deviating result in precise repetition.
      • I agree with Purodha and would like to state, in general, crucially, that: each piece empirical research should contain not only the result, but also the precise documentation of execution and/or the origin of the research, so as to allow others to reproduce the results. Turned around: An attempt, which cannot be reproduced due to inaccurate description, falsifises the result, in the same way as result deviations under a more precise attempt. (translation by Hillgentleman)

[edit] Interlingual collaboration

The Wikiversity Beta incubator site is coming along, but could use a lot more participation. Multilingual Studies at this version of Wikiversity is working on communicating directly with the German and Spanish Wikiversities and the main Beta incubator. We hope to establish communication lines directly with versions (those with subdomains and working interwiki links):

Other language wikiversities may exist as betas. See the nav bar at the top of Beta Wikiversity for versions under development.

Technical note: - For some odd reason, beta.wikiversity is not mapped into the local Interwiki map. This may be a job for the MediaWiki Project.

[edit] Parallel texts

We are developing two methods for dealing with parallel texts:

  1. bilingual comparative texts - A simple method by which two versions of a block of text are presented on a single page. (learning projects such as German to English, Japanese to English...)
  2. Topic:Multilingual Studies - A socio-technical approach to Multilingual collaboration and translation (Challenging but rewarding! See the Challenges section below)
We are in the process of organizing Language departments, building on the massive efforts at Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikibooks, Meta and many other projects inside and outside of Wikimedia. The m:Translation process is a strange and wonderful study for those with enough patience to pursue it. The Interlingual Beta Club and the Wikiversity Embassy are looking at the social and academic prospects for evaluating and rewarding such effort. (Again, see the Challenges section below)

[edit] Corpus linguistics

Computational linguistics combines Computer Science and Linguistics to develop a model of a natural language. As an institution, Wikiversity Proper (all versions present and future) is developing its own universal context:

  1. Technical context: MediaWiki-specific terminology inherited from the application — Help: Category: User: Template: Special: etc.
  2. Academic context: Schools, Departments, Divisions, Topics, Courses, etc.

Keywords like these must be translated immediately for the application to function effectively across languages. The table below is concentrated on English, German, Spanish and French language articles that can be synchronized on the four established Wikiversity versions. The selected articles are about translation itself and were chosen to expedite the establishment of Multilingual Studies Divisions with native language and translation departments for fast-track translation:

Local (English) Translation Computational linguistics Translator's Handbook
Beta Translation Computational linguistics] Translator's Handbook/En
Deutsch de:Übersetzung de:Computerlinguistik Translator's Handbook/De
Español es:Traducción es:Lingüística computacional Translator's Handbook/Es
Français edit me edit me Translator's Handbook/Fr
Note: The Translator's Handbook has no "master" copy. Each local copy residing in the Wikiversity project space on the three established Wikiversities are "draft" versions. Once the native speakers of English, German and Spanish are satisified with their version, it goes to the Wikiversity project space at Beta for review and editing by French, Chinese, Dutch, Portuguese, Russian, Korean, Italian and many other native language users. It is a living document. Join the Interlingual Beta Club if you dare. (It's not for the faint-of-heart.)

See the Wikiversity Divisions and Departments subsection below

[edit] Taskforce objectives

To reiterate: the Local Translation Taskforce (English Language Wikiversity) is focused on a German/English/Spanish/French translation matrix. If you have translation interests and abilities beyond those four languages, please do not add language versions to {{translators}} until their subdomain resolves. (see Template_talk:Translators for more information) Please participate at Translation taskforce at Beta or Multilingualism at Meta instead.

Social Note: Keep in mind that it is OK to be anglocentric here at the English Language Wikiversity. Please get rid of that when you go to Wikiversity Beta.

[edit] Translation Projects

Spanish to English

English to French

Multilingual Studies:

[edit] Language orientation

English, German, Spanish and now French are primary departments, simply because those are the initial language implementations of Wikiversity. We can't stop there. These pages and the secondary ones Chinese, Dutch, Portugese and the other hundreds of languages will have an English disambiguation and Native redirects (examples: Deutsch -> German, Español -> Spanish, 中文 -> Chinese) to their proper local learning/teaching group here. English speakers who "reside" here will also follow Wikiversity fellows to other language Wikiversities where they should find an English-friendly area for Orientation. A good entry point for those who are on this learning path may be translation, which is the core module of the beta version of the w:Corpus mentioned above.

Special Note: Repeating... It is natural, acceptable and predicatable to be anglocentric here at the English Language Wikiversity. This is perceived to be the host with the most. As you learn and grow, you might consider a more circular conceptualization of the role and character of your particular language and culture.

[edit] Naming conventions

Wikiversity:Naming conventions need to be consulted to homogonize the disambiguation pages, redirects, and language departments which point to things like German, English as a second language, Category:Spanish Language Division, German to English, Zh:中文, or Learning to speak Cherokee. This will make it easier for Non-English visitors and newcomers to find what they're looking for. See the Multilingual worksheet for more insight. discuss

Repeting...The technical context of MediaWiki requires an absolute treatment of namespaces and linkage all the way down to the case and character level. The technical aspects of interlinking contexts (not simply content) is staggering when your aim is to be inclusive. Wikiversity is, by definition non-exclusive in terms of who can participate and at what level. This culture of "liberty" (libre) is technically challenging and can be politically disturbing. Most would agree that Wikiversity is "standing upon the shoulders of giants".

  • Terms from the application — Help: Category: User: Template: Special: etc.
  • Terms from the institution — Schools, Departments, Divisions, Topics, Projects, Courses, etc.

American Challenge: Now, translate those across Eastern and Western character sets and propogate Wikiversity to all languages and cultures without starting WWIII. Let's learn to balence convention against innovation when dealing with Wikiversity:Naming conventions. What works "here" may not work "there" at all.

[edit] Challenges

Help translate the text in this image.

Template:Clr

[edit] Wikiversity Divisions and Departments

A myriad of work needs to be done:

  1. Translations for Wikiversity departments.
  2. Portal pages in every language at Wikiversity Beta.

If there is a Wikimedia project in language:X, there should be a page written in that language at Wikiversity Beta explaining what Wikiversity is and how to use Wikiversity Beta as an incubator for efforts leading to the creation of a Wikiversity domain specific protocol for language:X.

[edit] Readings

Each activity has a suggested associated background reading selection. You have the collective resources of the whole Wikimedia Foundation at your disposal. Use them!

[edit] References

Additional helpful readings include:

  1. w:blah
  2. ...

[edit] External links

Go for it!

]]" in particular). CQ 17:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi CQ, I translated something on this page Orientation (I hope this was what you intended) - see also the talk page there please. --Erkan Yilmaz 18:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Good job Erkan! See my reply at Talk:Orientation. I also made a copy of {{InterlingualMainNavEn}} at Beta.Wikiversity and put {{InterlingualMainNavDe}} at de:Vorlage:InterlingualMainNavDe. The Beta one should get added to first I reckon.
Talk:Orientation: handled, thx
Beta.Wikiversity corrected colloquium-link to German Wikiversity, also in these 4 here.
I think it has then also to be changed in the other wikiversities, if already created there. :-(
de:Vorlage:InterlingualMainNavDe: also edited this one.
--Erkan Yilmaz 11:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


Oh yeah... Here are links to the Wikiversity versions still at Wikibooks (no subdomain yet):

...Esperanto - Italiano - Nederlands - Português - Српски - Swedish... There a few others at beta. CQ 05:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture shock

The name "Interlingual Beta Club" may be innapropriate for non-Americans. Might need to back up and punt. The goal is to foster dialog and learn to translate. Whatever works. Use WV:BUT (WikiVersity:Beta Universal Translator) CQ 12:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

So, how about then including some other words like: communication, teamwork,... ? E.g. "Wikiversity Communication Center". --Erkan Yilmaz 12:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Glossary

Hi, I would propose to make something like a glossary for often used terms: e.g. Translation department, Schools,... Because such terms are perhaps not used in the different Wikiversities (because of their own structures, or they are not so far developed,...), so this helps people faster to understand an article. Could someone generate this and we will translate in the languages? --Erkan Yilmaz 14:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

e.g. Wikiversity:Practicum: Kurs (I did not find yet an explanation for Kurs, so I made a link to the list of all courses) --Erkan Yilmaz 14:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
e.g. Translation departments: Übersetzungsinstitute --Erkan Yilmaz 14:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I have started some work in this area through the Computational linguistics department. See the lexicography and Corpus linguistics sections. We need to immediately come up with a table for translations of the namespaces equivalent to School: Portal: Topic:, etc. Please check the example translation table at beta. BTW, Erkan and Daanschr, Thanks for the excellent translating work you've already done! CQ 18:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi CQ, thx for the nice words. At the moment I was a little busy - also with other projects, so will read again tomorrow. --Erkan Yilmaz 23:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German translation

Hi, the German translation of the IBC-page is translated here. I am reviewing it now for adapting things to the German wikiversity. I also added on the German, English, French, Spanish IBC-pages links to the other IBC-pages. --Erkan Yilmaz 14:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I will add a Dutch translation.--Daanschr 14:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
great, we are growing already that fast. IBCs all over the world let's unite. :-) --Erkan Yilmaz 14:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Vier Teilnehmer ist nicht viel.--Daanschr 16:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course: 4 participants is not much yet, but more than 4 weeks ago. It is always a point of view (half empty or half full). :-) Probably we will have to do much more work now, but let`s see. --Erkan Yilmaz 16:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
It is probably my Dutch calvinist pessimism that always presends the bottle as half empty (while i am roman catholic, but the minorties always take over the culture of the majority).:-)--Daanschr 17:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess you would probably be a good tester with such a pessimism. So, nevertheless keep up the pessimism. Better than non-pessimism. --Erkan Yilmaz 17:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Erkan.--Daanschr 07:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freestyle / Freistil

Hi,

Erkan contacted me on de.wikibooks. I have started two language projects, namely Freistil and Freestyle that shall help learners of English resp. German acquire the language by reading annotated texts written by native speakers.

Erkan suggested to combine these projects with the IBC. What do you think? Answer here, I'll check by regularly.

Best wishes, Bitbert alias Florian

Those are right on target for Transwiki-versity, Bitbert! See also German to English and help write English to German, and the others. We could use your help at the Translation TaskForce! -- CQ 00:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikimedia Commons, Transwiki and Interwiki linking

I've started a learning activity to help make better use of the Wikimedia Commons, while improving Multilingualism in general. Our Upload page here at the English Wikiversity will attempt to direct more files and images toward the Commons so that they can be shared by all languages and sisterprojects. I made sure that Wikiversity was represented a bit better at Category:CommonsRoot and commons:Wikiversity pages there. As Bryan and I were updating CommonsRoot for the top-level categories we found these:

 
 <!-- interwiki -->
 [[en:Category:Categories]]
 [[de:Kategorie:!Hauptkategorie]]
 [[es:Categoría:Categorías]]
 [[fr:Catégorie:Principale]]

With your tabbed browser please follow along to each of the top-level category pages:

I made sure that the top-level Category:Categories on all four Wikiversities were fully interlinked. Much more of this kind of work can be done to interlink equivilent pages across languages. To do this we should consider Multilingualism, Transwiki, and Interwiki linking at Meta. Using advice from there we move along...

Category:Transwiki is built on all four Wikiversities as a subcategory of Category:Wikiversity. So before we do that, we have to get the correct syntax for Category:Wikiversity. Follow along in your tabbed browser to:

en:Category:Wikiversity
de:Kategorie:Wikiversity
es:Categoría:Wikiveridad
fr:Catégorie:Appareil:Racine

We wanna make sure these are individually placed in the respective Category:Categories and all interlinked via Interwiki linking, so, if it's not there or incomplete, we paste in the code:

<!--interwiki .. please remove your local category from this list-->
[[en:Category:Wikiversity]]
[[de:Kategorie:Wikiversity]]
[[es:Categoría:Wikiveridad]]
[[fr:Catégorie:Appareil:Racine]]

Next, we'll create a pseudo-namespace, Transwiki: by first giving it a category page with a link to a main Transwiki page. Transwiki is a language-neutral word, so the page title will be the same on all versions. The equivilents of Category:Transwiki all contain the code:

<div class="multilingual">
<div class="lang-en" lang="en">[[:en:Transwiki]] - [[:en:Category:Transwiki]]</div>
<div class="lang-de" lang="de">[[:de:Transwiki]] - [[:de:Kategorie:Transwiki]]</div>
<div class="lang-es" lang="es">[[:es:Transwiki]] - [[:es:Categoría:Transwiki]]</div>
<div class="lang-fr" lang="fr">[[:fr:Transwiki]] - [[:fr:Catégorie:Transwiki]]</div>
</div>
<!-- Select the approppriate category for your language...
[[Category:Wikiversity]]
[[Kategorie:Wikiversity]]
[[Categoría:Wikiveridad]]
[[Catégorie:Appareil:Racine]]
... then remove this comment tag to activate -->
<!--interwiki .. please remove your local category from this list-->
[[en:Category:Transwiki]]
[[de:Kategorie:Transwiki]]
[[es:Categoría:Transwiki]]
[[fr:Catégorie:Transwiki]]

These are individually placed in the respective Category:Wikiversity by a local participant and again all interlinked via interwiki linking per the advice from Meta-Help:Transwiki. Follow along in your tabbed browser to:

en:Transwiki - en:Category:Transwiki
de:Transwiki - de:Kategorie:Transwiki
es:Transwiki - es:Categoría:Transwiki
fr:Transwiki - fr:Catégorie:Transwiki

Next we build the main namespace Transwiki index pages using a similar method, moving down the Category tree:

{{transwiki}}
<!-- Select the approppriate category for your language...
[[Category:Transwiki]]
[[Kategorie:Transwiki]]
[[Categoría:Transwiki]]
[[Catégorie:Transwiki]]
... then remove this comment tag to activate -->
<!--interwiki .. please remove your local Transwiki index page from this list-->
[[en:Transwiki]]
[[de:Transwiki]]
[[es:Transwiki]]
[[fr:Transwiki]]

Now we'll work on building the Template: objects, {{transwiki}} and {{interwiki}} in the Template: namespace on all four languages:

en:Template:Transwiki
[[de:{{de:template}}:Transwiki]]
[[es:{{es:template}}:Transwiki]]
[[fr:{{fr:template}}:Transwiki]]

...where the curly bracketed text is replaced with the appropriate syntax for Template. {{transwiki}} contains code something like:

<div class="multilingual">
<div class="lang-en" lang="en">[[:en:Transwiki]] - [[:en:Category:Transwiki]]</div>
<div class="lang-de" lang="de">[[:de:Transwiki]] - [[:de:Kategorie:Transwiki]]</div>
<div class="lang-es" lang="es">[[:es:Transwiki]] - [[:es:Categoría:Transwiki]]</div>
<div class="lang-fr" lang="fr">[[:fr:Transwiki]] - [[:fr:Catégorie:Transwiki]]</div>
</div>

Not real pretty (we can beautify it later), but it ubiquitously interlinks the other language Transwiki index pages, which dynamically track translation projects within the Transwiki: interlingual buffer zone.

Other namespace prefixes still need to be translated to build and expand {{transwiki}} and {{interwiki}}. Translation of Special:, Help:, User:, Portal:, School:, Topic:, etc. pages with some elementary translation and cultural appropriation as well as for main namespace articles will expedite cross-language content development.

We will also eventually do some work on beta.wikiversity.org once it gets into the interwiki map. We shall also help further the use of the Meta:Language select tool. People will be able to use their native language freely within the Transwiki:Namespace on all versions of Wikiversity. Hopefully this practice will propogate as our metacommunity expands to include an ever-growing array of languages and cultures. CQ 23:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

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