Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion/Archives/6

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This has a notice at the top of page, and has for some time, but no discussion I can find here. The page is wildly inaccurate and primarily a forum for Moulton's misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and attacks on Wikipedia editors and admins. Causes ill-will and is worse than useless as a study due to the tone and inaccuracies. KillerChihuahua 14:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it may have been part of a deletion set proposed by Centaur archived a few months ago and was determined at the time to be kept. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua, please feel free to create a learning set of pages expressing your points of view. Deleting other people's points of view is a poor way of creating learning resources. This is Wikiversity, not Wikipedia. WAS 4.250 10:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Due to recent issues regarding Moulton it doesn't seem wise to remove those pages yet, until a decision is made on the Community Review - if the Verizon, M.I.T. and other internet/security providers does become involved they may want to view these pages, I suggest you wait for the time being. Dark Obsidian^{@en.Meta-Wiki} 10:51, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is a simple matter to have an admin email copies of the pages, or undelete for a brief period of time, should the providers make the request. This is not an obstacle nor an argument against deletion. KillerChihuahua 03:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

KC - Wikiversity is not Wikipedia; we need to be more hesitatant about summarily deleting content that we may consider to be inaccurate and rather work towards presenting differing viewpoints, different interpretations and arguments. This content for better or worse is now part of the history/heritage of Wikiversity and almost by its very controversy deserves to remain as an artifact of our growth. Countrymike 20:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

while I appreciate those who are apparently attempting to educate me about the differences between WP and WV, you must have missed the core point that I didn't add the deletion notice to the page someone else did. I'm listing it here so you can all decide what to do. If its leftover and there was a Keep decision, remove the notice as housekeeping. If there was no discussion, an omission occurred. Dzonatas added the original notice, I don't know why it wasn't listed here. Perhaps you could address your comments about listing something for deletion to Dzonatas, and confine your discussion here about whether or not this particular page adds any value or is detrimental or has a null effect on Wikiversity. KillerChihuahua 03:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

See my note above. Also, this will blow your mind. Look at the "this" in "Any particular reason this attack page, full of names, inaccuracies, and the hurtful and distressing falsehood there is a "cabal" on the En WP is allowed to stand? KillerChihuahua 12:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC) ". Ottava Rima (talk) 04:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I am glad you found the previous discussion, which seems to have trickled to nothing rather than reaching a decision; not sure why you say the link will blow anyone's mind? KillerChihuahua 12:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I was joking. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Folks, please discuss the request, not the person making the request. The archiving on this page has never been particularly transparent, and the delete template was still on the page. --SB_Johnny ^talk 13:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

questions and points of information. "attacks on Wikipedia editors" <-- Please list these "attacks". If there are "attacks" then they should be removed by editing. "inaccuracies" <-- Please list the inaccuracies. Even if there are inaccuracies, that is not grounds for page deletion. In a wiki, inaccuracies are corrected by editing, not deleting. "Causes ill-will" <-- Please explain this statement. User:KillerChihuahua has a conflict of interest with respect to this learning resource. This research page is mainly an investigation into how a Wikipedia biography page was created in violation of Wikipedia policy and how the Wikipedia community responded. It was part of an action research project aimed at finding ways to improve Wikipedia. I'd like KillerChihuahua to explain how a scholarly attempt to improve Wikipedia "causes ill-will". KillerChihuahua has a conflict of interest because this page correctly described the fact that KillerChihuahua blocked Moulton from editing at Wikipedia but failed to leave a message on his talk page explaining why Moulton was blocked. It appears that KillerChihuahua wants to delete this page because it mentions the fact that she imposed a bad block and in so doing alienated a scholar and impeded him from constructively helping Wikipedia correct a biased biographical article. I also believe that KillerChihuahua is inappropriately trying to impose standards from Wikipedia in decisions about page deletion at Wikiversity. This page is a valid learning resource that supports the mission of Wikiversity. This page would be deleted from the Wikipedia main namespace, but it is a valid Wikiversity research project. --JWSchmidt 14:28, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course KC has an interest because she's among the subjects of the investigation. You (JWS) also have an interest as one of the authors. Having an interest doesn't necessarily entail a conflict of interest. She has just as much right to share her views as you do. --SB_Johnny ^talk 14:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

"She has just as much right to share her views as you do" <-- Thanks for reminding everyone...nobody ever said otherwise. It still remains a fact that KillerChihuahua has a conflict of interest in the matter of trying to have this valid learning resource deleted from Wikiversity. --JWSchmidt 15:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

As SB_Johnny mentioned, you have a conflict of interest yourself. The point is it would be best if you avoided your fallacious arguments and instead just addressed why it should or should not be kept. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 23:23, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

your fallacious arguments <-- please list the arguments that you claim to be fallacious. I find it strange that you come here to make a charge about Poisoning the well when you have seriously violated the Wikiversity civility policy by calling for an unjustified ban against Moulton. Please explain how I have "poisoned the well". --JWSchmidt 14:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Unjustified ban? You know very well the types of personal attacks Moulton made against Jimbo via email and how he was using Wikiversity to further that ends. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

"You know very well the types of personal attacks Moulton made against Jimbo via email" <-- No, I don't. Please list them here and explain how they are relevant to this discussion of proposed page deletion. "using Wikiversity to further that ends" <-- I don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Moulton has made personal attacks against Jimbo at Wikiversity? If so, please link to the edits where those attacks were made and explain how they are relevant to this discussion of proposed page deletion. --JWSchmidt 18:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry you don't understand why mentioning completely irrelevant topics in an attempt to bring the character of your opposition into question constitutes a logical fallacy, but it does. It doesn't even matter whether the accusations are true or not. If you ever plan on having decent communication skills, you should learn this. While politicians may resort to the technique now and then in order to gain an underhanded advantage, you use this fallacy far too often and in ways that undermine your ability to make a point, rather than help. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 23:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Please list the "completely irrelevant topics" you are referring to. --JWSchmidt 04:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I already responded directly to a couple of them. I'm done playing along with your lame attempts at sophistry. Playing dumb is not a good tactic if you expect to be taken seriously. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 18:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

how rude and incivil of you to say something like that

She has a conflict of interest against closing the discussion herself and in using administrative powers. No one has a conflict of interest against expressing their opinion in a poll/review. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

A conflict of interest occurs when someone has an interest that might compromise their reliability. In this case, the person proposing page deletion has an interest that might compromise their reliability in making a sound judgment about when a Wikiversity page should be proposed for deletion. The person proposing page deletion has an interest that might compromise their reliability in making statements about the page such as "wildly inaccurate", "primarily a forum for Moulton's misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies and attacks on Wikipedia editors and admins", "Causes ill-will" and "is worse than useless as a study". I think the Wikiversity community should carefully examine the validity of all these claims. --JWSchmidt 18:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

• To the first point Killer made - If this page is inaccurate, why haven't you for so long pointed the specific problem out at the appropriate venue, the Talk page? I am really eager to see balanced viewpoints, and your contributions are sorely needed. I am disappointed to see you spend so much time in arguing your cases for deleting contents time and again, while you could simply have described what happened from your point of view, and then everybody can decide for herself who is telling the truth. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 02:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

KEEP - EMESEE!

Keep - because it's long and I need to read it and I'm a slow reader. CQ 20:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Closed as Keep. No consensus. Discussion got off track. No specific arguments for or against this page was presented. The responsibility of proving that a page is or isn't an educational resource falls on everyone who participates in the discussion. Most anyone who participates in a discussion has a vested interest in the outcome. Specific examples where reasonable attempts to fix problems were unsuccessful should be demonstratable before proposing deletion again. Unreasonable participants should be brought before community review and not be used as an argument to delete this page. Let calmer/cooler heads prevail. -- darklama  19:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

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Nice use of the wikicode, but not exactly educational. --SB_Johnny ^talk 00:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Done Clearly not educational and likely copyright violation, this content can be found elsewhere on the web, here for example so can reasonably be deleted without extensive discussion. Adambro 09:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

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Not a lesson and redundant with b:Japanese/Grammar/Pro-form and b:Japanese/Lessons/Personal pronouns. --Swift 11:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by redundant? The wikibook pages are different from the wikiversity resources. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 14:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The wikibook is used as a primary textbook for the Japanese courses. This page has no course material (lesson activites, excercises, or any other content) beyond the textbook material that is already covered in the wikibook. It is thus redundant. --Swift 15:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikiversitans are encouraged to use and to some extend reorganise existing materials. This is part of a natural learning process, in the same way as you take notes in lectures even if everything you learn there is covered in your textbook. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 06:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Implicit in my statement that the page is redundant is the fact that it does not extend or reorganise anything. These are neither notes nor presented as such. The reader does not benefit from this material. This is not a policy proposal to cut off all overlap with Wikibooks. It is a request for deletion of a specific page which in this specific case is redundant, less developed and unhelpful. Please do it the courtesy to read through the referenced pages and evaluate it on its own merit. --Swift 08:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

No consensus --mikeu ^talk 21:39, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

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Redundant with b:Japanese/Contents. Probably part of efforts to restructure the b:Japanese wikibook by User:Balloonguy but he seems to have left both WB and WV. --Swift 11:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by redundant? This is a list for any wikiversity participant who want to use wikibooks to learn japanese. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 14:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

A more extensive and up to date list is available at b:Japanese/Contents. Balloonguy (talk | email | contribs | stats) was involved in restructuring of both the wikibook and the Japanese stream and topic but seems to have abandoned it. In the meantime, Retropunk (talk | email | contribs | stats) and I have completely revamped the book from its abysmal state into something of limited use and that might actually develop into something of use for a short course. That effort has created the more up to date contents overview on the wikibook and out-dated the contents on this page. --Swift 15:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikiversitans are encouraged to use and to some extend reorganise existing materials. This is part of a natural learning process, in the same way as you take notes in lectures even if everything you learn there is covered in your textbook. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 06:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

As noted above, this page is out-dated. That means that this page does not reflect the material available in the wikibook. Leaving out-dated content sitting around for years on end (as is the case here) does little to inspire confidence in this platform of learning. --Swift 08:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

No consensus --mikeu ^talk 21:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

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• Verb conjugation - Ichidan Verbs
• Japanese Verb Conjugation - Godan Verbs
• Verb Conjugation - Irregular Japanese Verbs

These are redundant with the b:Japanese wikibook. --Swift 12:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by redundant? The wikibook pages are different from the wikiversity resources. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 14:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The wikibook is used as a primary textbook for the Japanese courses. This page has no course material (lesson activites, excercises, or any other content) beyond the textbook material that is already covered in the wikibook. It is thus redundant. --Swift 15:05, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikiversitans are encouraged to use and to some extend reorganise existing materials. This is part of a natural learning process, in the same way as you take notes in lectures even if everything you learn there is covered in your textbook. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 06:19, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Implicit in my statement that the page is redundant is the fact that it does not extend or reorganise anything. These are neither notes nor presented as such. The reader does not benefit from this material. This is not a policy proposal to cut off all overlap with Wikibooks. It is a request for deletion of a specific page which in this specific case is redundant, less developed and unhelpful. Please do it the courtesy to read through the referenced pages and evaluate it on its own merit. --Swift 08:16, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are referring to with the wikibook, but I spent quite a while searching for this information on the net and this was the first (i.e. only) place I could find it. It seems to be a well thought out explanation of the "go" behind godan verbs and helped to clarify things for me. --CWeinhofer 07:15, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Ditto everything above. The ichidan verb page was very helpful and the first and best explanation I found online. 24.60.18.162 05:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)Draz

Relevant discussion: Topic_talk:Foreign_Language_Learning#Confusion.3F. --Swift 07:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Closed as keep --mikeu ^talk 21:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

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This page is redundant with b:Japanese/Numbers and b:Japanese/Grammar/Counters, the textbook used in the Japanese stream and topic. (User:Hillgentleman: These are not notes or reorganised material. It is not a retelling using a different approach or learning style. It is simply textbook material which is now redundant with the primary textbook referenced.) --Swift 08:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikiversians may create duplicate learning materials in their learning activities, and duplication is neither a bad thing nor prohibited. Since learning activities has ceased on that page, I am not entirely against deletion. But I would rather replace it with a placeholder with links to useful resources. Let me note further that collecting information from two pages from a wikibook onto one wikiversity page is clearly a reorganisation of materials. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 07:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No consensus --mikeu ^talk 21:45, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

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This reqeust for deletion is part of a learning project about wikimedia policy and process for deletions. Please participate below by expressing your opinions about if the nominated page should be kept or deleted. The results of the discussion will be acted on as any other deletion request.

This page is written as an encyclopedia article and the Wikiversity:Approved Wikiversity project proposal states that wikiversity is not "A duplication of other Wikimedia projects." Although the page indicates that "This Article is being used to test Wikipedia's policy and process for deletions." it is not clear how this fits in with the wikiversity mission to create learning projects. I also have concerns that this page is promoting a publicity stunt by a commercial company. I would suggest transwiki to wikipedia, however, the page has already been deleted once and is currently tagged for speedy. --mikeu ^talk 18:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC) (strikeout --mikeu ^talk 02:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC))

• Support deletion per reasons above. --mikeu ^talk 18:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose keep to see if w:Evan Ratliff remains on Wikipedia. My theory is that the experiment will make a significant contribution to understanding the Sociology of the Internet. What remains to be seen is if or not Wired will capture any interest with the stunt from Wikipedians and if any 'pedians (besides me) support one position or the other. CQ 22:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - strikes me that the "experiment" could inspire some interesting conversation around themes like those that CQ suggests that would otherwise not be welcome on WP but would be welcome here. Initiating a learning project / resource on WV by copying article from WP is in my opinion a reasonable place to start and should be allowed time to develop. mikeu's concerns that this may also just be a "publicity stunt by a commercial company" is an interesting point worth exploring in this context and could be engaged with on the page itself. If he can suggest this here, why not on the page? Countrymike 22:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. I'm not sure where it's going, but it could be interesting. --SB_Johnny ^talk 23:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support deletion. Wikiversity doesn't exist to document experiments like this on Wikipedia. It is incredibly difficult to see how CQ can suggest this might "make a significant contribution to understanding the Sociology of the Internet". We shouldn't be encouraging CQ and others to effectively be disrupting Wikipedia by using it to test theories. Remember Wikipedia Art anyone? Adambro 11:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

  I've heard of w:Wikipedia Art, but don't really know the full story. Could you fill us in? --SB_Johnny ^talk 11:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

  See w:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikipedia Art --mikeu ^talk 12:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose for now, per CQ & Countrymike. The Jade Knight ^(d'viser) 16:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The result of discussion is Keep. --mikeu ^talk 23:59, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

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I have tried to understand the purpose of this page and asked CQ (talk | email | contribs | stats) to assist with that on a number of occasions now ([1] [2] [3]). CQ has made a few brief comments about this but I remain unclear as to how this page furthers Wikiversity.

I understand it is perhaps intended to be humorous but as Cormaggio has noted on the talk page, humour has its limits. I get the impression that this might have been created in response to suggestions by JWSchmidt that a censorship policy either secretly exists or should exist. The problem I have is that I cannot understand how creating this page as a reaction to those suggestions benefits Wikiversity. Rather, I see it has more likely to be detrimental to Wikiversity as it inflames the situation by serving as a reminder of the tensions which resulted in the suggestion of a censorship policy.

I therefore propose that this page is deleted. Adambro 13:25, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

•  Comment Cormaggio's comment is here --mikeu ^talk 13:36, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
  • As I said in that comment, I think the definition of "censorship" needs to be much clearer for something like this to stand. Any definition of censorship should acknowledge project scope (i.e. WV:NOT) and community-defined principles (e.g. civility). Censorship is not a word which should be used lightly or freely - it connotes a system of control and suppression, which a page of this type would need to justify labelling. Unless JWSchmidt (or someone else) can put a case for a useful and necessary examination of censorship, I'd say this page should be deleted. (Speaking of which, why not concentrate on a clear deletion policy? Seems to be both more practical and more accessible.) Cormaggio ^talk 12:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support I don't believe this furthers Wikiversity, either. It sounds like an argument waiting to happen (or a reminder of ones that have happened). Trinity507 22:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

•  Comment In its current form, I don't think it belongs in the Wikiversity namespace or by that page name (where someone might expect to find policy). CQ may wish to move it into a user subpage before deletion? -- Jtneill - Talk - c 23:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

• The page should not be deleted, rather, it should be developed to discuss the censorship that takes place at Wikiversity. "an argument waiting to happen" <-- Is the idea that Wikiversity cannot have discussions of anything that might lead to controversy or disagreement? Should The wielders of the Mighty Ban Hammer just censor, delete, block and ban as they see fit in order to eliminate honest points of view that they are not comfortable with? Censorship, deleting useful pages, imposing bad blocks and bans are not the way to build a scholarly learning community. --JWSchmidt 14:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

  It would appear that previous suggestions to create the page and use it for the purposes you are proposing have been disregarded. The fact that this page now exists, albeit in a different form to how you would like it, doesn't make it any more likely that your proposal will be accepted. Adambro 16:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

  "It would appear" <-- Please explain what "previous suggestions" you are talking about. Deletion of this page will suit the Wikiversity censors well. They will be able to say, "We have no censorship at Wikiversity as you can tell by the fact that we deleted Wikiversity:Censorship". --JWSchmidt 17:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

  I really shouldn't have to explain what I mean when I mention "previous suggestions". I am of course referring to all those occasions where you have proposed this page be created which I assume didn't receive support based upon the page never being created in response. I'm unconvinced that the deletion of this page will "will suit the Wikiversity censors" since it would be well known in the community that what was deleted was nothing really to do with any supposed censorship on Wikiversity. Adambro 18:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

  Help me get this right...I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that because this page has been discussed as being a page where the unwritten rules of censorship at Wikiversity could be documented it should be deleted and then it would be clear that its deletion had nothing to do with censorship? Do I have that right? "it will only serve to rev up the dramas" <-- I wonder what "dramas" means. It would be best for Wikiversity censors to participate in documenting their acts of censorship rather than trying to prevent the community from documenting and discussing censorship at Wikiversity. --JWSchmidt 00:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

  I'm unconvinced by the apparent difficulty you have in understanding what I say and am not going to get drawn into endlessly clarifying everything I say for you to simply invent another bizarre interpretation for me to have to dismiss. Adambro 07:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

  "another bizarre interpretation" <-- please list all of the "bizarre interpretations" so that we can discuss them. I'm still looking for a valid reason for deletion of this page. Until we identify such a reason, the attempt to delete the page seems to be misguided. "the apparent difficulty you have in understanding" <-- the only inability to understand seems to be the nominator's inability to understand the value of allowing the community to discuss censorship at Wikiversity. An important part of adminship at Wikiversity is the right to avoid discussions. Start by saying I'm "not going to get drawn into" this discussion, then progress to censorship by removing questions from discussions, then move on to deletion, blocks and bans to make sure that discussion is ended. Are we now entering into this well-traveled path since the nominator for deletion has declared his intention not to get "drawn into" further discussion of this proposed page deletion? --JWSchmidt 13:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

  As I've said, I'm not going to waste my time trying to satisfy your appetite to repeatedly conjure up creative interpretations of my comments and ask me about them. I've explained the reason why I propose this page for deletion, whether it is valid is simply your opinion. I've also explained how deleting this page doesn't stop the community discussing any apparent "censorship" concerns. Proposing a page for deletion doesn't compel me to play your games. You should have learnt by now that I am not prepared to. Adambro 15:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

  It is interesting to see another editor label my discussion comments as playing games. Adambro: I demand that you either retract that accusation or else provide a list of what you perceive to be these "games". A valid reason for deletion would explain the harm that the page is doing to Wikiversity and its mission. You claimed that the page you want to delete "inflames the situation by serving as a reminder of the tensions which resulted in the suggestion of a censorship policy", but you have provided no evidence to support this claim. Censorship at Wikiversity is an important topic. Why not allow Wikiversity:Censorship to remain as a page where the community can accumulate information about Censorship at Wikiversity? Wikiversity is a community where participants work together to improve pages rather than delete them. Tensions at Wikiversity are not caused by discussion of censorship, tensions are caused by acts of censorship. The Wikiversity community needs more discussion of censorship, not page deletion that would erase and prevent such discussion. Adambro: reminder, you previously accused me of making "bizarre interpretations" and I requested that you list them. Since you have not respond to my request I am forced to assume that you have no evidence to support your accusation that I made "bizarre interpretations", so please strike that accusation from this community discussion page. --JWSchmidt 16:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

  I stand by my earlier comments and have nothing further I wish to add to them. Adambro 17:47, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

  Adambro: I propose that we collaborate to improve the Wikiversity:Censorship page. Suggested page content: "How to censor Wikiversity. Identify a page that you do not like. Rather than improve the page, try to delete the page. This is best done by speedy deletion so that there is no discussion of the deletion. Since the page that you want to delete is most likely not vandalism, you should take it to Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion. Invent an excuse (example: "the page is inflammatory") for why the page should be deleted. Many deletionists will support the deletion even if there is no good reason for deletion. If someone objects to deletion of the page and suggests how to improve the page, never discuss the merits of the proposed improvements, simply start flinging accusations such as "you are endlessly inventing bizarre interpretations" and "you are playing games". When asked, never explain what you mean by "bizarre interpretations" and "playing games", deletionists get a free ride at Wikiversity when it comes to civility and assuming good faith. If anyone objects to your own failure to assume good faith and your disruption of a community discussion just block them from editing and falsely accuse them of not assuming good faith. If more intimidation is need to enforce your censorship of Wikiversity then target someone for a ban... start by calling them a troll and tell them to fuck off and leave the project. If they do not take your hint and leave the project then gather your meat puppets and impose a ban. After of few rounds of such abuse, all the honest Wikiversity participants will leave and you will be free to censor Wikiversity as you like." --JWSchmidt 17:38, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support I'm sure CQ had good intentions, but it looks like it will only serve to rev up the dramas again. It should either be in the user space or deleted. --SB_Johnny ^talk 20:50, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
  •  Comment on discussions above and below: if this is intended to be a "resource page", it should be developed in the userspace or the mainspace. --SB_Johnny ^talk 09:49, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

• If there is tension, you can't make it go away by sweeping it under the rug. Adam, if there is something you don't understand, ask. Maybe someone else would. And if you still don't understand, ask again. Everyone on earth is limited and nobody can claim to be able to understand everything. Your own non-understanding of the content or you second-guesses of the authors's motivations are not sufficient reasons for deletion. If you don't find it useful, someone else would. As wikiversity is a collaboration, each piece of work speaks for itself. I Oppose because the reasons given by the proposer are subjective and insufficient. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 23:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

  I'm not interested in sweeping anything "under the rug". My motivation here is that pages shouldn't exist that are likely to stir things up and there isn't a good reason for them to exist. That is my view of the current situation. As you note, "nobody can claim to be able to understand everything", and it is because I couldn't understand the idea of this page that I asked its creator, CQ, about it a number of times. The reason I've proposed it for deletion is because I still don't understand how this page furthers Wikiversity. By proposing this for deletion, I am not saying that because I can't understand it it must be deleted, I'm saying I can't understand it so it is my opinion that it should be. I also don't understand why you disregard my reasons because they might be considered subjective. Since Wikiversity has no official deletion policy, there are no solid criteria that says what should and what shouldn't be deleted, but even if there was, deletion requests are never simply an objective appraisal of a page. The idea is that we all share our opinions to try to find a consensus.

  As I've said, my position is that I don't believe this page does anything to further Wikiversity. It doesn't seem you've actually addressed that, my reason for proposing it is deleted. Adambro 10:55, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

  Adam, the fact that you don't see how it furthers wikiversity doesn't preclude someone else does. To use your own reasoning, since there is no official deletion policy (nor do I think it is needed at present), I am against all subjective and insufficiently supported proposals for deletion. I totally agree that we should find consensus and that is why I am stating my opinion: Regarding your reasons, I just think they are not good enough. Best, Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 13:31, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

  I've never suggested that because I don't see how it furthers Wikiversity, nobody else will be able to see that it does. I note that you've still not explained why I'm wrong to form that opinion though it would seem. Perhaps if you were able to explain how this page furthers Wikiversity my opinion might change. Adambro 20:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

  w:Matthew 7:3 is well known to English speakers, Christians or non-Christians. I did not find your arguments based largely on a personal and subjective judgement convincing enough to support deletion. I believe it is wrong to delete without objective reasons, espcially when such actions can be perceived as censorship. That is my opinion and I note that you haven't yet explained why I'm wrong to do so. As always, the weight of evidence is on you, the proposer. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 13:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

  Adam, As far as I can see, what really inflamed the situation is your proposing deleting an innocent looking page without a concrete and objective reason, something that we can concretely discuss, like those that user:Mu301 give below. If you base your decisions on nothing but your own subjective judgements, sooner or later we will have to question your judgements. Right? Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 13:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

  Let's keep things simple. I think this page does nothing to further the Wikiversity project and is more likely to be detrimental than beneficial. Am I wrong to form that opinion? If so, why? Of course, if I propose something for deletion it is up to me to explain my reasoning but surely, if you oppose the deletion, it is helpful for you to actually explain why I am wrong to consider the page inappropriate. Adambro 14:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

  Hillgentleman: did you actually look at what's on the page before writing all this? There's nothing there, really. I asked CQ about it on IRC, and can say for sure that it's a joke (and intended as such). If you can't come up with a reason to keep this page, or improve it in some way to be worth keeping, then you've essentially said nothing. --SB_Johnny ^talk 23:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support - let's see, we've got a misleading page title, a cartoon, a cryptic request for a definition of "raison d'être" and a link to wikipedia. This has nothing to do with any of the wikiversity censorship issues that have been discussed above. Delete this and when people have something of substance to say about censorship create a new page in the proper namespace. --mikeu ^talk 13:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Deleted, arguments against do not seem to be addressed to the content on the page. If censorship is or has been a problem, WV:CR is the proper venue. The main namespace is the appropriate place to study censorship on WV or elsewhere. --SB_Johnny ^talk 12:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unused and abandoned. Such requests should be made at the Commons:Stroke Order Project or contribute them yourself. --Swift 12:46, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• Change focus of page - Requests such as this should be made where the project is active and there are people watching for requests. I'd suggest that this page be turned into a description of the project, and a link to it. --mikeu ^talk 21:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I would support turning it into a soft redirect. The Jade Knight ^(d'viser) 16:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me. --mikeu ^talk 13:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• Redirected to appropriate page on Commons. Adambro 17:54, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.