User talk:JWSchmidt

From Wikiversity

Jump to: navigation, search
Liberation. When we can see the world in more than one way.
What is Wikiversity?
*A Wikimedia project
*A wiki website
*An online community
*An e-learning experiment
*All of the above
Duckrabbit

This is a page for discussions with and about User:JWSchmidt. I also welcome nuggets of information that might not really require significant discussion, so if you know something that you suspect I might like to know, please leave me a note on this page.

The bad with the good. If you have a complaint about something I have done, please feel free to let me know what is on your mind. I strive to assume good faith and improve my behavior in response to honest criticism. For example, I often like to explore the boundary between what is socially acceptable and what is outrageous. If something I have done upsets you, please let me know. Also, I am sometimes blunt and and terse and my actions might seem needlessly confrontational. Let me know when I "cross the line" and start to disrupt the atmosphere of collaboration rather than support it. --JWSchmidt 15:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Civility hall of fame
For those who have called me troll and told me that you refuse to talk to me, I have created a special subpage for you to use. --JWSchmidt 14:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
For those who have called me a whiner, I have created a special subpage for you to use.
For those who have told me to "go fuck yourself and go away", I have created a special subpage for you to use.
--JWSchmidt 15:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Newer discussions are on this page. Older discussions are in the discussion archives.

Contents

[edit] genopsych

May see my update on genopsych. DMR.

responded --JWSchmidt 15:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] genopsych

Dear JW Schmid, I think the following subjects are relevant to understand genopsych [1] plant neurobiology and intelligence [2] intelligent behavior of microorganism [3] intuition and instinctual behavior [4] physiological changes due to psychological[ hypnosis, placebo effect and phenomenon like autotomy ] decisions [5] self assembling materials , memory metals etc [6] entropy to creation of new information [7] brain processes [8] information processing within genome [8] random and non random variations , statistical process control [9] Shannon Entropy. DMR Sekhar,79.173.221.246 11:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re

ping. Donek (talk) - Go raibh mile maith agaibh 23:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

-) ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 17:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moodle Sanbox

Hi JWSchmidt. I am interested in a Moodle Sandbox course for create some resources for on Moodle and how to use it. I would like this course ASAP. Can you let me know if this is at all possible? Thanks so much. Jgetz 18:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Portal talk:Wiki Scholar/About the movie#the “versity” part

ping, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 19:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethical Management of the English Language Wikipedia

Welcome to the Ethical Management of the English Language Wikipedia project. May I recommend that you copy one or more of your user subpages to project space as learning resources there? WAS 4.250 18:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] off on a tangent a bit......

just caught up on the ethics project latest, and wandered by Salmon's talk page and noticed your most recent post there - which led me here because I thought I'd share a couple of my thoughts on the bigger picture issue of the whole ID thing. These are totally a propos nothing in particular, and usual disclaimers apply! (just my thoughts, no biggie etc. etc.)

I first wandered into the intelligent design article many years ago (as User:Petesmiles) for reasons lost to me in the mists of time (probably as a result of reading Dawkins? not sure.....) - and enjoyed chatting and editing there, though the learning curve was fairly steep, I wasn't surprised that it was a heated, contentious area, and I do feel that the actual article itself is actually very good.

To cut a long back-story short, one of the weird things that becomes clear (and took me a while to 'get') is that the proponents of the modern movement 'Intelligent Design' really are all associated with one particular institute - the reasons for this are a little bit circular in some ways - but it's really interesting to examine that assertion, and when I do, I find I basically agree with it. One particular bit of your note to Salmon stood out to me a bit - which was " many scientists are skeptical about the power of Darwinian natural selection to account for everything we see in the biosphere" - because I'm just not really sure that that actually is the case... you're probably aware of w:Project Steve, which is a tongue in cheek response to some of the variously framed attempts to question evolution. It's my belief that the vast (vast) majority of scientific opinion supports evolution, which in my lay understanding I'm treating synonymously with 'darwinian natural selection'.

I believe a siege mentality can cause severe harm in wiki editing culture, and indeed may well have caused harm at certain article groups.... I kind of also believe that progress lies in allowing systems to take the strain from / combat agenda-driven pressure in certain areas, because it's definitely there. It's hard to avoid a siege mentality when you're under siege! :-)

Ethics are of course vital in this area, but we're also wandering off into all sorts of other areas, which I'm happy to do! - I hope you don't mind me wandering by and rambling a bit - in other news, I came across some very interesting ethics-related conversation on en wiki earlier, and may have a word with some folk about bringing some material over here..... :-) cheers, Privatemusings 08:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not as insignificant a tangent as one might imagine. Archimedes, who is venerated as the First Engineer, explained the use of the Lever thusly, "Give me a place to stand and I will move the world."
That tangent into Intelligent Design turns out to be a longer lever, more fulsomely fulcrumated, than I had previously appreciated. After finding all the IP edits of Rosalind Picard (some via her MIT VPN login, some from her Sabbatical-year office at Boston College, and some from home on her residential RCN cable service), we accumulate the following integrated collection of Picardian edit summaries on her own en:WP BLP:

Picard IP Edit Summaries

  • 23:20, February 4, 2007 (hist) (diff) Rosalind Picard ‎ (focus on the entry)
  • 23:19, February 4, 2007 (hist) (diff) Rosalind Picard ‎ (the deleted material has nothing to do with the person in the entry)
  • 22:35, June 29, 2006 (hist) (diff) Rosalind Picard ‎ ("anti-evol" is POV of the writer. the organizers of the petition support many aspects of evolution such as microevolution so to label it anti-evolution is an attempt to sell more newspapers)
  • 23:29, April 27, 2006 (hist) (diff) Rosalind Picard ‎ (Read the petition. Calling it anti-evolution is not accurate, even if the NYT tried to label it that way.)
  • 23:24, April 27, 2006 (hist) (diff) Rosalind Picard ‎ (→Intelligent Design Support: The petition does NOT say anything about intelligent design. Read the petition.)
  • 00:21, March 31, 2006 (hist) (diff) Rosalind Picard ‎ (→Showing Skepticism and Asking for Critical Examination of Evidence)
  • 15:28, March 13, 2006 (hist) (diff) Rosalind Picard ‎ (→Showing Skepticism and Asking for More Critical Examination of the Evidence)
The above edit summaries make it abundantly clear that Picard's on-Wiki complaint (spanning 11 months from March 2006 to February 2007) coincides in substance and detail with my complaint (spanning 13 months from August 2007 to September 2008), that the Picard BLP erroneously connects her (and the notorious petition) to Intelligent Design, and utterly fails to apprehend the text of the 2001 pre-publication petition, as circulated in private E-Mail among academics, to be a sincere and sober call for rigorous adherence to the protocols of the Scientific Method when examining the evidence for any theory.
Moulton 13:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Deletion request

As far as I can tell this template doesn't work, how does one specify the reason for deletion in a call to the template? It isn't clear why "the reason for deletion must be given on the template". Adambro 10:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Would you care to enter into a sensible discussion about your thoughts about Template:Deletion request on its talk page please. Adambro 14:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SLP

I saw your plan for a song called "SLP". What does "SLP" mean? --Trout of Doubt 16:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Nice nic! I'm still working on the song. Right now I'm thinking that the song will be a kind of puzzle to illustrate how learning can take place at Wikiversity. The meaning of "SLP" will probably remain a puzzle to be solved, so I'm reluctant to spoil the fun of solving the puzzle by telling you the answer. Come to Wikiversity:Chat or Teamspeak....there is someone else there who knows what "SLP" is and who might be willing to tell you. I'll say this, the song is not meant to be mean or to discourage anyone from coming to Wikiversity. The song is a learning project. --JWSchmidt 16:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiversity:Requests for_Deletion#Wikiversity:Student union

ping: did you see the "Further thoughts" ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 18:44, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Urgent Action Required

It is imperitive that you, as the only currently active custodian, block User:Daniel Brandt‎ immediately. Salmon of Doubt 13:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

You'll also need to delete his user and usertalk pages, and then protect his user talk page. Salmon of Doubt 14:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Look like someone used User:Daniel Brandt‎ as a disguise, as it doesn't look like the real Daniel Brandt‎. Dzonatas 16:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Student union

I suggest to move the discussion over to Ethical_Management_of_the_English_Language_Wikiversity/Case_Studies/Deletionism instead of a edit war. Perhaps, a DPL could be created for active discussion and a link added to the student union page to the DPL. Fair? Dzonatas 20:58, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Let's talk...

Hello JWSchmidt, are you willing to meet in chat so we can talk alltogether ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 17:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IRC

Hopefully in the upcoming week I'll have some IRC time.

I'm just browsing the state of the union, and will try pinging a few people here and there, to see what is up and what I can do. Glad to see you are back though. :) Historybuff 06:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:I want a pony!.jpg

licence difference: Image talk:I want a pony!.jpg, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 21:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Introduce teachingforthefuture interview of JWS.m4a.OGG

What licence should this be ? ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 22:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

fixed. I still think it is silly that the upload system lets people upload without selecting a license. --JWSchmidt 22:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template Babel pt not working properly?

Hi, thank you for the welcome. I went to set my User page and when trying to set the pt-3 in Babel template it fails with an error. I checked and the template exists, yet it does not seem to accept anything but straight "pt". Any ideas? -- Alexf 22:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletionism versus air-conditioner

Hi, John. Let us be a little unseriously imaginatively philosophical. I often like to define "evil" as "destroying/destruction of information" (instead of "un-godly" which some theologians like), for any act of destruction of information increases entropy in the world.

Very often we see resources that pass the test of deletionism become stronger. So, perhaps, deletionism (working in the same way as an air-conditioner) may destroy some information, but in the same time make a smaller part of wikiversity more orderly? Hillgentleman|Talk 18:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Physics w:Entropy is a measure of useful energy in thermodynamic theory. It is commonly misunderstood as a measure of w:disorder; but consider the case of a drop of water versus the snowflakes that that drop can create when it possesses less available energy. There is more order. w:Information is another thing altogether from available energy or from the other thing, order. Information is related to the unexpected or unpredicted so that a series of a thousand recorded coin flips has both disorder and information (mostly useless, but information and w:knowledge and w:understanding are yet each different things); while pi (3.14...) has a predictable sequence, thus less information (yet has far more use). See w:Entropy (information theory) for more information on this. WAS 4.250 06:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Did you see these comments ?

Talk:Albanian sea port history, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 21:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] category:History

Please never put anything in this category; I'm working very hard to clear it out right now. If you find an uncategorized History page (or category), please place it in Category:Unsorted History Projects (and tell me the first time you do this; I'll file that category away in the right spot), and try to get the individual pages where they go. Thanks. The Jade Knight 05:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] garbage

John, On your description "good faith edits by wikiversity participants are garbage" If I use the definition from merriam-webster dictionary online: garbage=food waste, discarded or useless material, trash, inaccurate or useless data [1], (reading the word "garbage" without emotional content) people do contribute innaccurate and useless data to wikivesity. Surely we may say that, if somebody creates an empty page, like blackhole and goes away, it would show that she is interested in the subject, and it is not useless information. In that case, let me say "almost useless". Hillgentleman|Talk 06:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RE your request for notifications

The following diffs include notifications of Moulton's various blocks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Moulton&diff=153398366&oldid=153362905 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Moulton&diff=157214521&oldid=157213483

The reblock by Yamla was procedural and required no notice (previous unblock was "restricted unblock to facilitate current Request for Arbitration" which was rejected) The reblock by FeloniousMonk was procedural and required no notice (previous unblock was "unblock to change duration," but duration was not changed) The reblock by Blueboy96 was procedural and required no notice (previous unblock was "to allow SUL merging," SUL was merged)

Hope that helps! Salmon of Doubt 20:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject study before editing

Hi John,

Which article, or couple of articles would you like to choose as participant of this project?--Daanschr 06:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I saw that Moulton also likes to choose those articles. So, i will take a look at them as well. I don't think we will be able to acquire additional participants, but we will see.
Is everything alright with you, given the fuss with McCormack?--Daanschr 14:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I saw that there was no information anymore about that a topic would be chosen a year in advance before editing, so participants have the chance to read themselves into the topic. Also, the present topics may be too obscure to have such formal arrangement. I do like to have a list of literature though, which we can use for the discourse.--Daanschr 14:52, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Therefore, i favour to choose one central major topic and to edit several obscure articles related to this topic.--Daanschr 15:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict and incivility

Hi John, thanks for joining the Learning from conflict and incivility project, and adding your thoughts from your blog. I wonder though: would you like to reflect more - personally - on some of your comments/actions, especially those that have caused obvious offence? Have you thought about the possible consequences of calling someone a "little kid" (for example)? Also, I think your pretence of anonymity in the Student union conflict is unnecessary - I think there's nothing wrong with being personal, provided it takes place within civility and assuming good faith. Cormaggio talk 08:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

John, I'd echo SB_Johnny below in asking you to please be more civil - to which I'd add "self-reflective". You ask me to provide a list of examples of where you've caused offence, which I would view as more appropriate for the Learning from conflict and incivility project than your talk page. I'd simply ask however, are you not aware that you have been causing offence? On calling someone a "little kid", you insinuated as much in the "I want a pony" discussion in your blog post (above). However, I'd admit it wasn't the best specific example (especially in the context of Salmon's "I want a pony" comments) - even though I'd still encourage you to be more reflective about your role here. To clarify my comment on the "pretence of anonymity in the Student union conflict", I was referring to your commentary on: "this particular participant (I'm not allowed to use his name)". As I said, I don't see anything wrong with critiquing and naming people, provided you do so in a way that is "fair" - ie being civil, assuming good faith, and not making any deliberate provocations that could be seen as an "attack" - even though this is often difficult to define, and different people have different thresholds. Cormaggio talk 08:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
John, I'd say SB_Johnny and I have been asking you to not be so hostile. I'd say we have been asking you - as a reasonable person - to acknowledge that, judging by the fact there has been so much conflict around your actions, that you might have the good reason to take a step back and consider how you might have contributed to the escalation of this conflict. This is what I set up the Learning from conflict and incivility project for, and this is why I have tended towards identifying instances of incivility as a group activity, and not solely on your talk page. I'd never expect you to read my mind - though I wish you might show more self-awareness. Cormaggio talk 16:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Three Profiles

Please take a look at this and provide a response (on its or my talk page only). My goal is accuracy; I understand that some examples and explanations may still be lacking; it is only the beginning of an outline. But as it involves you, I would like your opinion. Note: a single example "counts" as far as willingness to do something, for this project. The Jade Knight 09:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dude!

John, please take a day or two to calm down... I don't know what's gotten into you, but it's painful to watch. --SB_Johnny talk 14:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem calm to me, and I'm not going to try to have a discussion with you while you're acting like this. --SB_Johnny talk 15:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I think you just said, "I want a pony". How does that help build dialog and understanding? --JWSchmidt 15:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
No, I don't want a pony, I want my friend to stop embarrassing himself, and I'm worried that if I try to have a conversation with you that you'll treat me like you've been treating others (i.e., badly).
Just as an aside, I'll be picking up a load of pony poo tomorrow (weather permitting), and will try to take a pic or two... might be a fun image to explain why I don't want a pony. --SB_Johnny talk 16:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
  • When I was about 12 I saw a television show about a poker game. One of the players was having bad luck and started stealing chips out of the bank without buying them. Another player, sitting across the table was the first to notice. He quietly held up a small mirror so that everyone at the table could see the other player steal some more chips. Everyone else then started to attack the person who had held up the mirror. All I'm doing at Wikiversity is holding up a mirror, but you think I'm embarrassing myself. Okay, I understand. This is the same culture made famous at Wikipedia...rather than look in the mirror, complain about the person who is holding up the mirror. --JWSchmidt 16:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
  • John, nobody is going to look at the mirror when the person holding it is throwing turds at the people who are supposed to be looking at it. Even the bystanders are going to be busy watching out for ricocheting turds. --SB_Johnny talk 16:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
It is interesting that you say I am "throwing turds" or that I am displaying "absolutely atrocious behavior", but you can make these claims about me, and when challenged to support your claims, you just say, "I'm not going to talk to you." Tell me specifics about what you are calling "absolutely atrocious behavior", then we can discuss it. Until you become communicative, I'm just dodging the turds you are throwing. --JWSchmidt 16:39, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I've been working on the specifics, and will post them up soon. I had hoped that some input from your fellow users saying "yes, please stop" would be sufficient, but if you really need to do the whole RfC/ArbCommish thing, we can do it that way. It would be much better for everyone if you would just take some time to cool off instead. --SB_Johnny talk 16:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"the whole RfC/ArbCommish thing" <-- why not just simple conversation and open dialog? --JWSchmidt 16:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Your "conversations and open dialogs" of late don't lead me to believe there's much to be gained, because your responses to any criticism have been at best erratic, at worst irrational. If you give up your bits, I'll gladly try discussing things with you, but right now I'm genuinely concerned about how you will react and am therefore wary of engaging with you. --SB_Johnny talk 17:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"your responses to any criticism have been at best erratic, at worst irrational" <-- Please provide evidence to support this claim. --JWSchmidt 17:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
OK, hard way then. --SB_Johnny talk 17:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"hard way then" <-- That's the path you intend to take. The "hard way" is your choice. I still want to talk, but you refuse. --JWSchmidt 17:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I intend to take the best possible path to achieve the best result. When you say "Please provide evidence to support this claim.", you point to the hard way, because you're suggesting that you don't think the way you've been treating people is inappropriate. --SB_Johnny talk 17:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"Please provide evidence to support this claim." <-- this is a common way to ask for information during a conversation. Please assume good faith rather than invent negative interpretations of the possible meaning of my words. I'm a scientist. If I ask for evidence it means I would like to see the evidence. Is there something wrong with having this particular evidence examined? If so, please explain what that problem is. --JWSchmidt 17:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

(← reset tabs) John, you can see evidence here and here, which is what we were discussing in the first place. If you don't see why there's a problem there, just give up your bits and I'll do my best to see you through it as a moderator. I assume Moulton will give me a good reference as a moderator of good faith. --SB_Johnny talk 18:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I followed those two links. User:KillerChihuahua was critical of the contents of this page. I responded by inviting her to join the research project and explain her objections. User:Cormaggio commented on "the toxic, sarcastic, aggressive culture that we're seeing more and more of these days - and which you are very much contributing to". In my response I said that I was interested to hear suggestions from Cormaggio for alternatives to what he views as "toxic" culture. I wish you would explain how these responses are "erratic, at worst irrational". I don't think its fair for you to adopt the position that you are obviously correct in you views so you do not need to explain your views. I've repeatedly, in good faith, asked you to explain your views. Explaining your position, when asked to do so, is a normal part of human communication. I'm willing to fully discuss my views and my actions. I cannot read other people's minds, divine their unspoken desires and then automatically do that they want me to do. If someone says, "there's a problem" then I think it is fair for me to ask them to tell me what they think the problem is. Once I hear what other people are thinking then we can have a conversation and sort things out. I view this as the conventional and rational approach, an approach enshrined in the justice system of the country I've always lived in. --JWSchmidt 20:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
John, please just give up your bits. Just imagine: when people get pissed at you, they'll complain to me, and then I'll ask you what you really meant, and then I'll be there backing you up. Conversations will go a lot more smoothly when people aren't scared of you: everyone knows that I'm an equal opportunity "despot" when a despot is needed (or perceived to be needed) :-). --SB_Johnny talk 02:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Guys, why not use the chat ? You can still publish the log later if you want, ----Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 17:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Erkan, I wish that were a good answer, but I feel pretty strongly that the atmosphere on the IRC channel is no longer constructive. --SB_Johnny talk 17:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiversity:Student union

I've merged Wikiversity:Student Union to Wikiversity:Student union the entire history has been restored, I sincerely apologies for any problems this may have caused. Dark Mage 09:16, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if "Wikiversity:Student Union" follows the page name conventions. --JWSchmidt 12:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Permission

I, Ottava Rima, give JWSchmidt permission to revoke any use of my tools during my probationary period. Ottava Rima 02:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

P.S., I would give him permission to revoke them after, and to ban me willy nilly, if I didn't think the power would go to his head. I'm just kidding. :) Ottava Rima 02:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha. I only block vandals. As far as I can tell, bans are futile. --JWSchmidt 04:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Moulton's three day trial

I have posted this on multiple pages - Please see this. I would like to try and have Moulton work on this task and have him refrain from the escalating actions. I would ask that you monitor but respect Moulton's work at this time, and take any complaints or concerns directly to me. There will be a peer review process at the end, and I believe that this process will be most effective after he is complete and in the manner that I put forth. I am requesting that Moulton only edit on this project during this time, and I would like if you could show him the courtesy in not furthering any dispute with him until after the process is over, and that we are all able to discuss this project. If that is too much to ask for, please contact me, and I will see how I can accommodate your needs. Thank you, and please pass the word to any that I may have forgotten and this may pertain to. Ottava Rima 18:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Good luck! --JWSchmidt 18:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


[edit] CSD

Your image is tagged as a candidate for speedy deletion. Is there a compliant version on Wikicommons? Or is there any further information that you can add to satisfy this request? Ottava Rima (talk) 02:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Right now, I think you could justify at least some of the pages in the way that Wikipedia justifies the page. Please place a link to the Wikipedia version of the file. If you put in fair use rationale, I believe you can justify removing the CSD. It should go through standard deletion review and not speedy, but I will let you rationalize it first and see if anyone comes by and has further problems with it. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair procedure and posting statements

Hi, JWS. Following your concerns above, I have further modified the page (in line with earlier intentions) to provide you with appropriate sections to post your material. There are now sections below the evidence sections where you can post or transclude a general statement. In addition, you have the links provided higher up the page if you wish to record objections to the introductory statements on the page. If you require the creation of further appropriate venues for your materials, please let me know and I will help with integration. --McCormack 10:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I have modified my user talk page (in line with earlier intentions) to provide you with appropriate sections to post your material. If you require the creation of further appropriate venues for your materials, please let me know and I will help with integration. --JWSchmidt 14:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Day 1 Reflections

3) There is one Wikiversity participant who does not want to provide a link at the top of the Main Page to the main student portal page. I think Wikiversity should have such a link. <---- What do you mean by this?. Is it the main Wikiversity:Main Page you meant, if you want feel free to provide a link - or I could, if you could explain what you mean. Dark Mage 20:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese fire drill

This made me smile. The Jade Knight 00:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your effort to talk about these things with me. I tend (generally) not to take grievances to user pages, but to keep them at talk pages, and relate them directly to the material at hand. Of course, there's a point where some discussion at the talk page could only help…
I hope you'll forgive me if I'm terribly straightforward: There are a few things you've done at Wikiversity which have really bothered me. I recognize that you simply view the goals of Wikiversity somewhat differently than I do, and you use different methods to try to achieve those goals than I do; I understand that you aren't trying to be a horrible contributor, etc. I talk about this somewhat on my Learning from conflict and incivility page. However, I am bothered by some of the tools you use to support your views of Wikiversity.
In particular, I am bothered by your pointed "learning projects" which are designed to be arguments against certain ideologies. I am bothered by your explicit and implicit condemnation of individuals, particularly on prominent pages. I am bothered that you seem unaware that your concept of Wikiversity is only one of many. And, most of all, I am bothered by your use of straw man arguments. This last thing is especially disturbing to me, because straw men, while rhetorically effective, are dishonest. And while the rest of your actions could be explained by simple honest differences of opinion and feelings that there is a need to push your view of Wikiversity, I have a very hard time imagining that a good faith user would think dishonesty would be an appropriate tool to support his views. The Jade Knight 00:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
  • 'I assume you are making reference to my "pointed" editing that arises from the fact that I think Wikiversity should welcome new contributors and help them learn to edit' —The problem is that several editors here (including myself) feel that your projects do the opposite; that they make certain users feel very unwelcome at Wikiversity. Part of the problem is that what is silly to one may be extremely offensive to others; for example, think of the Muhammad cartoons. Part of being welcoming at Wikiversity is to show respect to others. Free speech may also be an important part of it, but it is not the only part; free speech can be very unwelcoming, as well, depending on what is being said. Respect is important.
  • I don't mind certain projects here being called "parody", either, but I do oppose projects which make parodies of other Wikiversity users, especially if such parodies are not clearly labelled as such. In particular I am opposed to such parodies being located at major portals. Again, this is a matter of respect (and a matter of setting the proper tone for new Wikiversity participants). Remember that parodies (especially satires) can be very hurtful. Many people have been killed over them.
  • "I do not feel that I have a role to play in condemning editors" —Satire condemns; I think it is important that you realize this. While it may be better for individuals to just "talk to you", creating your "pointed" projects which mock other users and then expecting them to just come talk to you is about the equivalent of elbowing someone in the ribs and expecting them to just come "talk to you" about it. If you want people to talk calmly, you're better off using other forms of object lessons (and doing more direct talking to them).
  • "I'm sure there are many other differences between my view of Wikiversity and the views of others" —indeed there are. And yours is not the "canonical" view (no one's is). Please remember that.
  • A Modest Proposal was satire, and it shocked and offended many people, including a few who understood that it was satire, and especially those who did not. To assign the words in A Modest Proposal to anyone at the time would have been considered extremely offensive and rude (no one, including Swift, would have considered such actions welcoming). That said, what Swift wrote was, if one understood that it was not serious, terribly funny. I don't think anyone here at Wikiversity has found any of your straw man arguments funny. Part of the reason is that you are using straw men arguments in the process of logical discourse. A Modest Proposal was absurd, and clearly so; your comments appear to have been written to mislead the reader in such a way so that your own particular viewpoint will be given greater esteem. You may have intended to write like Swift, but what you have written comes across not as brilliant comedy, but as dishonest, self-serving argument. You may want to reconsider your use of loaded rhetoric in the future, as it is most likely only to offend.
  • Again, in a situation of rational discourse, straw men arguments are veiled lies. When you are making an argument, it is very important that you present your opponent's arguments in as fair and neutral a manner as possible, if you intend to be honest. If you are going to create a satire, make sure that everyone is well aware that you are making satire. And please realize that The Colloquium is not an appropriate place for satire. Neither is the student union. Neither is someone else's serious historical project. Neither are talk pages. Frankly, if you intend to welcome people to Wikiversity, then given your apparent current perceptions of what is and is not appropriate for Wikiversity, you need to be thinking a lot more about how to avoid offending people than you do about ensuring that their contributions* are in line with your vision of Wikiversity.
*Administrative edits, including RfD's, are still contributions in the minds of most users. The Jade Knight 06:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
…and I want to apologize if I come across as overly hard. I must say I've been significantly irked by some of these things lately, and so when writing about them I may not appear as calm as I otherwise might wish to. I'm not trying to offend, and I apologize if my tone seems rude. The Jade Knight 08:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate you reading and responding to my comments. I hope that you'll try to take a more gentler tack when dealing with conflict in the future; I think we should discuss the whole mess vs. being rude to newcomers issue more; I do believe a compromise can be reached on this issue, but it will take a little compromising on everyone's parts, I think. I think I understand your goals better, and why you did what you did. For me, it didn't work well at all; it is important to me when engaged in a discussion or debate that my opponent be rhetorically honest—and as somewhat who has taught Writing, I notice rhetorical devices fairly quickly. I'm not opposed to there being parody on Wikiversity, but building community is essential, and when other participants feel mocked, it hurts that sense of community. At any rate, thanks for spending the time to respond to my concerns. The Jade Knight 00:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Not a bad idea, though I think we generally need guidelines for how to deal with pages like those. I realize that your goal is to encourage new users. My goal is to direct new users to real content; not by deleting their pages, but by funnelling them to good content, instead of "stub"/empty content. Make sense? Using the Training namespace could be part of this plan. Part of it could be awareness: encouraging people to put the "Training" template (when it's made) instead of voting DR. And part of it is making sure "training" projects don't get stuck in the main categories at Browse. Anyway, we should discuss this more with the community at large. The Jade Knight 06:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blanked page(s) at ethics project

To avoid an edit war, I put a DR on your page: Wikipedia Ethics/Moulton, JWSchmidt's investigation. If you wish to immediately keep the content, I suggest to move it to your userspace, and you may remove the DR tag once moved to your userspace. I hope this was fair. Dzonatas 19:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] question

"a canvassed checkuser nomination" <-- what does this mean? --JWSchmidt 20:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

It means exactly what I said it is. -- Cat chi? 21:09, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] this is terrible in my book :-(

so it falls to me to leave a note saying that you're indefinitely blocked at the moment? - I'm chatting on IRC to try and get a picture of the goings on. I'm really hoping that you can somehow continue to take this as a learning experience on some level! - though in my book it's a terrible for the health of the community. It'll come out in the wash, I'm sure (well - I hope...) :-) Privatemusings 22:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. If you are in #wikiversity-en, do you have any idea why I am blocked from that channel? "a learning experience" <-- I hope we can all sort this out. Right now, I know nothing. "terrible for the health of the community" <-- why do you say that? Please do not panic, my friend. I look forward to many long years of collaboration with you at Wikiversity, Wikipedia, and other WMF projects. --JWSchmidt 23:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
there is active discussion as we speak - my take on it is that there was some tension surrounding Moulton, with you not banning him from the channel, despite being asked to? Further - it's been said that you requested links to freenode or WV policy - I think links to WV policy were provided (or offered, or felt that they were provided) - and that your subsequent inaction represented a risk to the IRC channel in some way.....
SB just returned to the channel, and everyone there is having full and open discussion, so hopefully this'll all move towards resolution before too long... Privatemusings 23:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the news. I've repeatedly made it clear that I only kick/block/ban for vandalism. I do not recognize any obligation to automatically perform kicks/blocks/bans for others upon their request. I proposed that it be formally made policy that there be no release of private/personal information both here at Wikiversity (make Wikiversity:Privacy policy official policy) and in #wikiversity-en (put the rules in the topic). Nobody did anything. My approach was to keep reminding Moulton to not mention personal/private information and I kept pressing him to give up his interest in the real world identities of wiki editors. "full and open discussion" <-- right. --JWSchmidt 23:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm also bothered that you've been blocked; we were just beginning to have productive conversation, I feel... The Jade Knight 02:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Jade Knight. Don't fret, I look forward to many long and happy years of collaborating with you at Wikiversity. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me and teach me. I really appreciate your help. --JWSchmidt 02:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Teamwork

"his return to teamwork with Moulton and encouraging Moulton to transfer his "work" to beta.wikiversity.org" <-- After Jimbo suggested some changes, that we turn "an eye towards developing principles for dealing with such projects in the future. One idea that I would like to propose is an explicit ban on "case studies" using real examples of non-notable people, in exchange for hypotheticals", I began to think about modifications to the Wikiversity research policy. I take my collaborators as I find them, and Moulton expressed some willingness to help improve the research policy. I asked him to read the research policy and make suggestions for improvements. I would have done exactly the same for anyone who showed an interest in collaborating with me to improve Wikiversity. "encouraging Moulton to transfer his "work" to beta.wikiversity.org" <-- SB_Johnny, Mu301, and Cormaggio: please tell me what you mean by: his "work". --JWSchmidt 02:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

(Sorry, I mentioned this to you on IRC, but to continue on-wiki): One of the things that concerned me personally was this edit from Moulton, in which I think it's pretty clear that Moulton is not simply intent on collaborating on research guidelines, but also continuing his personal crusade against Wikimedians, by whom he feels aggrieved. (I would note that I absolutely don't begrudge Moulton the right to deal with these issues - even somehow within Wikiversity/Wikimedia - but that I don't think his modus operandi so far has been appropriate to Wikiversity.) I know you've been trying to persuade Moulton from refraining from adding personal information (see also this RCA) - so I wonder if you have any comments or advice here? Cormaggio talk 09:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it aids constructive discussion about these kinds of issues if we can refer to specific examples such as: Wikipedia Ethics/Moulton, JWSchmidt's investigation/Final report. That page is an early draft of a report on problems that can arise in Wikipedia biographies of living persons (BLPs). That page mentions one "throw-away" Wikipedia user account that was created by an experienced Wikipedian who knew that their edits would violate Wikipedia policy. User:Centaur of attention wanted this Wikiversity page to be deleted. Why? According to "Centaur of attention", the report, "casts specific Wikipedians in poor light". The only Wikipedian mentioned in the report was the person who created a "throw-away" account for the purpose of violating Wikipedia policy. It could be argued that by discussing this case, the person who violated Wikipedia policy might feel embarrassment, so Wikiversity participants cannot discuss this case. Does that make sense? Wikipedia policy explicitly states that Wikipedians should be on watch for just this kind of attempt to create biased Wikipedia articles. Everyday Wikipedian's who watch BLPs take note of these kinds of problems, discuss them and take action to correct them. Wikipedia is improved by discussing bad editing and existing problems at Wikipedia. Does it really make sense to say that Wikiversity researchers cannot discuss editing problems at Wikipedia because doing so might cause embarrassment? The edit history of Wikipedia is public. There is no reasonable expectation of protection from embarrassment when people edit Wikipedia. Editing Wikipedia is a public act and Wikipedia policy calls upon Wikipedia editors to examine the edits of others. I think the key point Moulton was making here is that there can be several reasons why someone might object to a Wikiversity research project. One reason is fear that someone might suffer embarrassment. Another reason is that someone might be trying to prevent Wikipedians from discovering and correcting problems at Wikipedia. Someone who is trying to prevent Wikipedians from discovering and correcting problems at Wikipedia could use the potential for "embarrassment" as an excuse for blocking a Wikiversity research project. I think it is a valid and pertinent question: how do we distinguish between real sources of embarrassment that research policy should prevent and false claims of potential embarrassment that are used as an excuse to cover up problems at Wikipedia? As for Moulton's motivations, he has stated these on his user page. I view his interest in fixing problems with BLPs as an integral part of the on-going efforts of many Wikipedian's to improve Wikipedia. Yes, Moulton has in the past crossed the line here at the English language Wikiversity by violating the spirit of the proposed privacy policy. Jimbo has called for Moulton to be blocked at any WMF project where he crosses that line. Yes, we have to watch Moulton's editing at beta.wikiversity. I asked him to help improve the research policy at beta.wikiversity and as long as he does that, I welcome his help. Besides one name, apparently the real name of a wiki editor, I have never been told what "private information" Moulton is accused of releasing. Since I do not know what to watch for, I made SBJ a custodian at beta.wikiversity. However, I think we are in a situation where no evidence is required to support claims about Moulton releasing "private information". All that is required is an unsupported claim that Moulton has released private information. This is not healthy: it exactly corresponds to conditions of a witch hunt. According to your statement at the Colloquium, your mistaken assumption about why I asked Moulton to edit at beta.wikiversity formed the basis for your decision to block me and remove me from custodianship. I ask you to do what is right and correct your error. I advise you to admit your error, unblock me and return my custodianship. Before you take action to block Moulton from editing at beta.wikiversity, I ask that you actually have verifiable evidence that he has violated policy. --JWSchmidt 14:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi John, it's actually impossible to cite specific cases of outing that have been oversighted, because they don't then exist in the page's history. However, here's one example that hasn't yet been dealt with, and which I will now bring to the attention of a steward. You acknowledge that Moulton has crossed the line - and this is what I think we need to do now: to figure out what that line is. (Where are our boundaries as a project and as a community?) I definitely want to have you on board for that, and I'm not happy with your being blocked. However, the decision was not solely based on Moulton's work, or your work with him - as the Colloquium post said, it was based on a multiplicity of factors, listed in the review - and so I'm prepared to stand over it for now, even though it troubles me greatly. Cormaggio talk 15:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
"a multiplicity of factors, listed in the review" <-- Before I was blocked, I was working my way through the twisted charges in the "review". I have now been prevented from defending myself against those twisted charges. I ask you to do the honorable thing and unblock me so that I can continue to answer those charges and show the Wikiversity community how twisted they are and that they do not provide justification for blocking me from editing, preventing me from participating in #wikiversity-en and they do not justify removing me from custodianship. For example, the "review" charges that I have been motivated in my Wikiversity participation by attempts to go after my enemies at Wikipedia. Previously, I asked that you list those presumed enemies. I call on you to backup your charges with facts or withdraw them. I don't think it is fair for you to just keep pointing to bodgus charges (particularly charges that I have either challenged or not yet had a chance to respond to) as justification for keeping me blocked from editing. Let's start here: who are my enemies at "Wikipedia and the foundation"? List those enemies or withdraw the charge you made against me. I also ask you to formally, on the Colloquium, retract your insinuating charge that I invited Moulton to "transfer his "work" to beta.wikiversity.org". You know that I did no such thing. I asked Moulton to help modify the research policy in response to Jimbo's suggested changes. --JWSchmidt 16:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi John, I think it would be more useful if, instead of picking holes in criticisms, that you listened more to the intent behind them. I understand that you may feel "under attack" at the moment - which would be an understandable reaction. Maybe you don't agree with the way the "review" is worded; maybe you don't agree with specific points in it. However, I want to reinforce that the "review" and the subsequent action is based on an overall behaviour pattern that I and others have seen as damaging - the substance and detail of which is in the review (though it is partial and imperfect). In a nutshell, what I see as problematic is: 1) your use of strawman arguments (as documented by Jade Knight); 2) "fun" at the expense of others (eg. in the 'Trout of Doubt' page, and certain edits on 'Student Union'); and 3) counter-critiquing, and not listening to criticisms, or taking them on board (as in this whole process of discussing your behaviour). I also know from previous experience that you have a tendency to respond to segments of another's comment/edit, but not always respond to - or in the spirit of - the overall or underlying meaning that the other is trying to convey. So, what I would urge you to do is to reread the review in its entirety, and look for what is being conveyed as specific problems. As I said, I am not happy with your block, but all it's trying to do is to ask you to take a step back from defence/counter-attack, to recognise the problems, and to start a good-faith attempt to address them. (You can start doing so in a separate section on this page if you like - and btw, I'm not saying that you shouldn't counter-critique, but that it would be much more helpful if you weren't so quick to do so right now) When you start this more constructive process (which, I should reinforce, will involve critique of others than yourself), I will actively support your unblock. Cormaggio talk 14:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
"instead of picking holes in criticisms, that you listened more to the intent behind them" <-- Is it your contention that you can publish false charges against me, use those false charges to "justify" blocking me and removing my custodianship, and then expect me to ignore those false charges because you have good intentions? If so, I reject your position. Your continuing reliance on false charges and your attempt to get me to ignore your misuse of those false charges makes it hard for me to believe that you have good intentions....your actions speak louder than your words. "your use of strawman arguments" <-- I often make use of analogies in order to help people think about a topic. If you reject a particular analogy that I make use of, then feel free to explain why you reject the analogy. If you feel that I misrepresent someone's position, then step in and say where you think I am wrong. "fun" at the expense of others <-- I never edit so as to have fun at the expense of others. If I challenge the actions and views of others, I am doing so because I want to improve Wikiversity. I made the trout of doubt user page in order to explore an analogy....it was mainly a learning exercise for myself. I knew there was a chance that Salmon would see the page, but he had previously expressed unswerving confidence in his user page statement, so I had no reason to expect that he would take offense at my learning exercise. When I made the learning exercise at the student union, I wanted to let Wikiversity participants who self-identify as students know what was going on and that an attempt had been made to delete the student union. I still feel that this is important information to share with Wikiversity participants. In making these learning exercises I was not trying to have fun at the expense of others. "not listening to criticisms" <-- It is truly absurd to try to level this charge against me. I have endlessly asked people to discuss their criticisms with me. I think my discussion with Jade Knight illustrates the value of such discussions. Rather than have fruitful discussions with me, your approach is to post a bunch of false and twisted charges and then ask me to look past the specifics of those charges and read your mind so as to understand your true intent. I can't read your mind. It seems like you do not like some of the learning resources I have crafted at Wikiversity. I stand ready to adjust the types of learning resources I make and which pages they go on when Wikiversity reaches consensus in decisions about page content. Part of the wiki consensus process is stating reasons to support your position. When I have asked for such reasons I have been answered with several variants of: "I do not have to give reasons, if you cannot figure it out for yourself, then there is nothing more I can do". I fail to see "I do not have to give reasons" as the basis for consensus at Wikiversity. If you want me to understand your position you have to explain your position, not just expect me to magically adopt it when I hear it. "I also know from previous experience that you have a tendency to respond to segments of another's comment/edit, but not always respond to - or in the spirit of - the overall or underlying meaning that the other is trying to convey." <-- I do the best I can with what I have. If you feel that I am not responding to your "underlying meaning" then it is important that you talk to me and explain your "underlying meaning". It is really not productive for you to say, "I can't explain my position, so I'll just block you". "recognise the problems, and to start a good-faith attempt to address them" <-- I have already done so. The kind of discussion I have had with Jade Knight (1, 2, 3, 4) is an example of what I stand ready to do with anyone else who has problems with my editing. Unblock me and let me continue that process. --JWSchmidt 18:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful if you assumed good faith here. Consider this: When you had that discussion with me, I had originally seen your edits as very damaging and falsely accusatory. You have since assured me that this was your intention. You may see Cormaggio's edits as very damaging and falsely accusatory. He is assuring you that this is not his intention. As I assume good faith of you, you should assume good faith of him, and try to work with him to resolve this in good faith. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 23:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
"I had originally seen your edits as very damaging and falsely accusatory. You have since assured me that this was your intention." <-- Please provide a link to where I assured you that I intended my edits to be "very damaging and falsely accusatory". "you should assume good faith of him" <-- I initially assumed that Cormaggio might have put his name on false charges against me without being aware that they were false charges, so I explained to Cormaggio what the false charges are. Cormaggio refuses to retract those false charges or even discuss them with me. Are you asking me to assume good faith in Cormaggio's action of making false charges against me and trying to use those false charges to justify blocking me and removing my custodial status? Are you asking me to assume good faith in Cormaggio's action of coming to this page and claiming that he wants to discuss my editing but he refuses to tell me what the "obvious" problems are in my editing? "try to work with him to resolve this" <-- Are you suggesting that I have not been doing so? --JWSchmidt 14:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

(<---)I too have been confused by reading you say "talk to me" and being told, in essence, read my mind. On the other hand your comment "he had previously expressed unswerving confidence in his user page statement, so I had no reason to expect that he would take offense at my learning exercise" demonstrates that you have a mistaken model of human behavior in your mind. Expressed high levels of confidence do not indicate that the person is unlikely to take offense. Think of an animal who perceives a threat making himself appear larger - "puffing himself up". Expressing high levels of confidence is often a clue that the person is feeling threatened. WAS 4.250 13:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

In any event, if there is some interest in developing the faculty of constructing reliable theories of mind (i.e. beliefs, desires, dreads, intentions, motivations, and pretensions of knowledge) of otherwise unseen avatars, perhaps we should launch a workshop and seminar on blind mind-reading in the absence of the usual cues (i.e. visible facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, and other normative nonverbal signals) under the constraint of poker-faced text-telegraphy. —Gastrin Bombesin 14:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
"mistaken model of human behavior" <-- I do not hold that model....this is why I invite wiki participants to use this talk page as a place to discuss any problems they have with my editing. When a scientist such as myself says, "I have no evidence," it does not imply that such evidence does not exist. I'm always ready to listen when people bring new evidence to my attention. --JWSchmidt 14:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

One of the things that has been bothering me in our conversation so far is that I am responding to your behaviour with other people, and observing that several other people have been bothered - sometimes deeply hurt - by things you've said and/or done. The evidence for their hurt is in many, many comments about your activity on 'Student union', 'Albanian sea port history', and other pages. Given the fact that this has been explicitly pointed out firstly by the people involved on the talk pages, and within edit summaries; and subsequently on community discussion fora (here and here), I have found your asking for "evidence", and claiming that you are being asked to "read my mind", to be quite disingenuous. I also find it hurtful that you say that I am not prepared to discuss with you. I clearly want to discuss this recent turmoil; I want to discuss yours, mine, and others' roles within it - but the framework of this discussion has to be the plain fact that many people are unhappy with the events that led up to this block. On this note, however, I commend your recent discussion with Jade Knight, and I think it shows a lot of hope. So, I'm trying to take a leaf out of that discussion here.

When I said "fun at the expense of others" - what I mean is that you edit in order to have fun yourself (which, of course, is a good thing), but that you possibly don't always think of the consequences of your actions on others. For example, on the Albanian sea port history page, which contained no content at all, and that had been proposed for deletion - you turned it with these two edits into a personal - and quite ad hominem - "learning project" on 'deletionism'. You say here that you were "having fun being silly", which you apologise for, recognising that not all things are equally funny to everyone. But what concerns me is that you didn't take criticisms (firstly subtle [2] [3], and then more direct) on board at the time, nor recognise that Jade Knight was clearly hurt. I'm concerned that you don't listen to these kinds of concerns; that you require lengthy expositions of this kind (and of the kind Jade Knight has engaged in) in order to respond graciously.

I agree with much of your perspective on page-deletion, and the encouraging of Wikiversity contributors. But I think you sometimes take your perspective too far, and make it too personal. For example, I know you have long disagreed with McCormack, but even still, I think you have been much more hostile and sneering than is called for, or, indeed, than is appropriate for a civil environment. Just to take one example, do you think this was an appropriate response to the deletion debate? (I, incidentally, don't.) Do you think that there are people who want to actively "suppress" good faith contributions to Wikiversity? If so, can you show me examples of this?

Reading back over some of what I'm writing here, I seem to have taken a similar tone to what I have done so far (above), and that has seemingly provoked you further (even though I was intending the opposite). However, I hope you can read this in the light of a critical friend - I am trying to get you to step back from conflict in order to reflect on your own role in it. I'm sorry if I haven't been clear with you, and I'm sorry for forcing you into this temporarily blocked situation. As I've said before I think it's far from ideal, and I also acknowledge I've made mistakes in this process. I think what we need to do is to acknowledge our mistakes as part of recognising the cause of our recent problems. That is precisely what this block is attempting to do - albeit quite clumsily. So, I urge to stop calling "false charges", and instead looking to understand why people are saying these things to/about you - whether or not you believe you were justified, or that the "charges" are unjustified. Cormaggio talk 13:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It occurs to me that no one is happy with this block. (If I am mistaken, then I would be grateful if someone — anyone — would stand up and say, "I am happy with this block.") If it is in fact the case that no one is happy with this block, then it occurs to me that (unless Wikiversitans are masochists) it would behoove the community to stand down from this block and return to the status quo ante. There is a reason pencils come with erasers on the other end. If it was a mistake to block John in the first place, then it is an even bigger mistake not to erase the original error. —Albatross 13:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
While I don't disagree, I'm not entirely sure it's appropriate for you to be posting in this discussion ATM, and I seriously doubt it helps your case for you to be making it here in light of everything else going on, Moulton. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 23:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
"I have found your asking for 'evidence', and claiming that you are being asked to 'read my mind', to be quite disingenuous" <-- I find it strange that you can lecture me about the benefits of being aware and sensitive while you are yourself are so unaware and insensitive. I completely reject your false charge that when I ask for evidence I am in some way not straightforward or candid in my requests for information. For example, when you came to this page and requested that I "reflect more - personally - on some of your comments/actions, especially those that have caused obvious offence", I responded on your talk page with a request for clarification: "I think it would be useful if you made a list of "those that have caused obvious offence" then I can comment about what you put into the list". That was a simple request for clarification from you about something that you might feel is "obvious", but which is not obvious to me. How long would it have taken you to make such a list and place it on my user talk page? Five minutes? Ten? Not very long. But you are in a position where you need not explain what you are talking about because it is "obvious". Since what you are talking about is by your very own definition "obvious", it is also "obvious" that I must know what you are talking about. Fine, you hold all the cards. You get to define what is obvious. Apparently you can read my mind and you think you know that I understand what you are thinking and you think you know that I am being deceptive when I ask for clarification of what you are talking about. Have fun with that. You will have a long glorious career as an educator who gets to define what is obvious to your students. You can block them from participating in your classes anytime they ask you to explain the "obvious". You created a model of my mind, but I'm telling you that your model is wrong. You insist that you know my mind better than I do. That's just great. Have fun with that. If you are proposing this as the basis for moving Wikiversity into the future, I will oppose you in that effort. Wikiversity is supposed to be a place where we talk out disputes. Online communication can be tricky. If someone requests clarification, then we provide that clarification, we don't say, "if you don't know what I mean, then there is nothing I can do for you". That game of saying "if you don't know what I mean, then there is nothing I can do for you" is a way of gaming the system and a way of escaping from the responsibility we all share to communicate effectively. Why do you want to play that game with me? Since you are the busy 'crat do you have a magic "get out of obligations free card" that says you do not have to explain what you think is obvious? If that is your position, then you are only demonstrating that you are unworthy to play a leadership role in Wikiversity. Yes, I could have made a guess about what you think is "obvious", but rather than make that guess I asked you to tell me what you think is obvious. That request is a simple and normal part of human communication. Rather than engage in that kind of simple and direct communication you entered into an elaborate game pretending that you know my mind better than I do. For you, it is "obvious" that you are correct about the state of my mind and that I am deceptively hiding my true state of mind by asking you to provide a simple list. To me it is obvious that you are wrong. I really want that list and I will will respond in detail to the items that you put into that list. As it is, we have a standoff, one that has lasted several weeks. Why not do a simple experiment? Provide the list I requested. I will then respond to the items on your list and we can have an adult discussion. --JWSchmidt 14:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
John, how is that an appropriate response to what I've said before, and particularly just now? I gave you examples, I pointed you to discussions - yet you say I'm playing games with you? I've already given you material for discussion - it's not a "charge" - please let's discuss. Cormaggio talk 16:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
"how is that an appropriate response to what I've said before" <-- You asked me to discuss something that is obvious to you, I've told you that I do not know what is obvious to you and I asked you to make a list that shows me what you are calling "obvious". I have promised to respond to that list. This is human communications 101. You say something I do not understand. I request clarification of what you mean. In normal human communication you would then clarify for me what you mean. Rather than do that, you continue to insist that I know what you are calling "obvious" and so you refuse to tell me what you think is obvious. Now are you trying to define my simple request for clarification as being inappropriate? Your reply to my request for clarification was "You ask me to provide a list of examples of where you've caused offence, which I would view as more appropriate for the 'Learning from conflict and incivility' project than your talk page.". I do not agree. If you think my editing "caused offence" then provide a link to my offensive edit on my talk page and let me discuss the edit. If you want to make a list of my edits on another page, that is fine, just bring that list to my attention and I will respond to it. I find it strange that I was