User:LauraHale/IRC log - 23/11/2010

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Session Start: Tue Nov 23 06:46:26 2010 Session Ident: #wikiversity-en �03
[06:46] * Now talking in #wikiversity-en �03
[06:46] * Topic is 'Welcome to the English Wikiversity IRC channel: http://en.wikiversity.org | For assistance ask your question and WAIT for an answer or ask at http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Colloquium | No public logging | Discuss http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server | CVN channel at #cvn-wv-en�' �03
[06:46] * Set by darkcode on Sun Jan 24 00:54:33
[06:46] #wikiversity-en url is http://en.wikiversity.org/ �05
[06:46] -ChanServ-
[##australia] Welcome to ##australia!
[06:46] <Ottava> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Ottava_Rima �05
[06:46] -ChanServ- �mattis^� is not on �#aboutus�.
[06:46] <Ottava> Fun times �03
[06:48] * Joins: Erkan___Yilmaz_ (~Erkan___Y@f053220066.adsl.alicedsl.de) �02
[06:48] * Quits: Erkan___Yilmaz (~Erkan___Y@f053220066.adsl.alicedsl.de�) (Read error: Connection reset by peer�)
[06:50] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> Ottava, some people want things, others want other things or same things
[06:50] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> well, world is full of desires �06
[06:51] * Erkan___Yilmaz_ looks for some monks with no desires on this Earth
[06:55] <SB_Johnny> heya Erkan! �06
[06:55] * SB_Johnny knew Erkan was online because his skype kept making noises :-)
[06:56] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> hi SB_Johnny
[06:56] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> hehe, wait until the clones of Erkan appear
[06:56] <Ottava> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Thekohser#No_consensus_to_unblock
[06:56] <darkcode> but months with no desires won't desire you either Erkan
[06:56] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> you should also get some SB_Johnny - they might be helpful at the farm :-)
[06:56] <darkcode> err but monks
[06:56] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> darkcode, I miss your wisdom .-)
[06:57] <SB_Johnny> so Erkan: my dog is being neutered today
[06:57] <darkcode> poor doggy
[06:57] <SB_Johnny> oh yeah, I need clones on the farm
[06:58] <SB_Johnny> darkcode: his adopted sister would have almost certainly killed him if he started humping her
[06:58] <SB_Johnny> (she's a lot bigger)
[06:59] <SB_Johnny> it's actually good timing, because he just started lifting his leg a couple weeks ago
[06:59] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> hehe
[06:59] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> poor dogs
[06:59] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> I wonder what people would do if someone would start to neutralize humans :-) �03
[06:59] * Joins: t_thanos1 (~thanos@150.140.215.111)
[06:59] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> iassou t_thanos
[06:59] <SB_Johnny> well, Nula is spayed, so she's definitely "not that kind of girl"
[07:00] <SB_Johnny> and she really would kill him �02
[07:00] * Quits: t_thanos (~thanos@wikiversity/assassingr�) (Disconnected by services�) �03
[07:00] * t_thanos1 is now known as t_thanos �02
[07:00] * Quits: t_thanos (~thanos@150.140.215.111�) (Changing host�) �03
[07:00] * Joins: t_thanos (~thanos@wikiversity/assassingr)
[07:00] <SB_Johnny> though it's very sweet, she's obviously missing him today
[07:02] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> what does your daughter say to this all? she understands already? �06
[07:03] * darkcode has Erkan neutered to find out �03
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[07:08] <Erkan___Yilmaz> darkcode, thanks for the experience, how can I make a revanche?
[07:08] <Erkan___Yilmaz> transplant the parts which I got cut off on you? ;-)
[07:08] <Erkan___Yilmaz> let's see: on your nose perhaps?
[07:09] <Erkan___Yilmaz> sorry guys and girls normally we are just like that
[07:09] <Erkan___Yilmaz> educational stuff will begin soon after this conversation �02
[07:12] * Quits: Ottava (~no@68-245-121-110.pools.spcsdns.net�) (Read error: Connection reset by peer�) �03
[07:13] * Joins: Ottava (~no@68-245-121-110.pools.spcsdns.net)
[07:15] <t_thanos> γεια σου Erkan___Yilmaz
[07:15] <t_thanos> hello guys. How are you keeping?
[07:15] <Ottava> Who are you, thanos?
[07:16] <t_thanos> I was assassing in el.wv but decided to use my real name
[07:16] <Erkan___Yilmaz> t_thanos, busy all time :-) I quit my job and am starting my own business in January
[07:16] <Erkan___Yilmaz> much things do since in germany the state really wants all kind of legal papers
[07:16] <t_thanos> (yeah, I outed myself) �06
[07:16] * Erkan___Yilmaz embraces t_thanos for outing himself
[07:16] <t_thanos> *assassingr �06
[07:17] * Erkan___Yilmaz also places some wet kisses on his cheek
[07:17] <Ottava> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity_talk:Recusal#Conflicts_with_proposal
[07:17] <Ottava> Abd sure loves to rant
[07:17] <Ottava> assassingr? That name sounds familiar
[07:17] <t_thanos> I used to lurk here about two years ago
[07:18] <t_thanos> I'm a custodian in el.wv but inactive these last years
[07:19] <Ottava> hmm
[07:19] <SB_Johnny> oh, heya assasingr ;-)
[07:19] <t_thanos> how are things going in en.wv? I was thinking these last days of starting some notes on Probability Theory
[07:20] <t_thanos> Ottava: check my irc mask info to be sure
[07:20] <Ottava> okay
[07:21] <t_thanos> on my other question: how's the activity in en.wv? Do you need a couple of hands?
[07:22] <Ottava> t_thanos - we always do �02
[07:22] * Quits: Erkan___Yilmaz (~Erkan___Y@f053220066.adsl.alicedsl.de�) (Read error: Connection reset by peer�)
[07:22] <Ottava> and if Abd gets his way, we wont have any acive admin
[07:22] <Ottava> so �03
[07:22] * Joins: Erkan___Yilmaz (~Erkan___Y@f053220066.adsl.alicedsl.de)
[07:23] <t_thanos> and has the dust settled after that thing with Moulton?
[07:23] <Ottava> Nah, he was replaced by Abd
[07:23] <Ottava> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Ottava_Rima
[07:23] <Ottava> have fun reading
[07:23] <t_thanos> hahaha, something tells me that I'll soon find out who this Abd guy is �02
[07:39] * Quits: Erkan___Yilmaz (~Erkan___Y@f053220066.adsl.alicedsl.de�) (Read error: Connection reset by peer�) �03
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[07:39] <Ottava> wb Erkan
[07:43] <Erkan___Yilmaz_> thx Ottava �03
[07:46] * LauraHale is now known as Laura|HotCoCo �06
[07:49] * Ottava steals Laura's coco
[07:49] <Ottava> or cocoa* �03
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[08:11] * Quits: t_thanos (~thanos@wikiversity/assassingr�) (Quit: Leaving.�) �03
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[08:21] <Ottava> wb t_thanos
[08:21] <Ottava> Wiki working for you yet?
[08:21] <Ottava> or is Europe still dead? �02
[08:31] * Quits: Erkan___Yilmaz_ (~Erkan___Y@f053220066.adsl.alicedsl.de�) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds�) �02
[08:31] * Quits: Ottava (~no@68-245-121-110.pools.spcsdns.net�) �03
[08:32] * Joins: Ottava (~no@68-245-121-110.pools.spcsdns.net) �03
[08:34] * Laura|HotCoCo is now known as LauraHale
[08:34] <Ottava> http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3ACommunity_Review%2FOttava_Rima&action=historysubmit&diff=650604&oldid=650600
[08:36] <t_thanos> kinda working, but it's taking a lot of time
[08:37] <Ottava> Abd was saying I was buddies with Darkcode and that I was being sneaky by asking opinions on the matter in chat before acting
[08:37] <Ottava> I think it is rather obvious that Darkcode and I aren't friends
[08:37] <Ottava> and that there was nothing sneaky about illiciting opinions on a matter from other active users �01
[08:39] <LauraHale> It is sneaky when you do it to circumvent channels and don't provide access to the discussion in order to provide context for further actions.
[08:39] <Ottava> circumvent which channels? �01
[08:40] <LauraHale> And Ottava, for the record, I consider WMF chatrooms public so if I'm in here, I don't feel the need to ask you for permission to publish your logs.
[08:40] <Ottava> well, the topic says no public logs
[08:40] <Ottava> so change the topic
[08:40] <Ottava> :P �01
[08:40] <LauraHale> The channel mode is not +s. The room is public. �01
[08:40] <LauraHale> So the topic is just like anything else: Advisory.
[08:40] <darkcode> the channel topic says no public logging
[08:40] <Ottava> Doesn't matter, #wikipedia chats do the same thing
[08:40] <Ottava> same as Commons
[08:41] <Ottava> etc
[08:41] <Ottava> Freenode as a rule says not to publish logs publicly
[08:41] <Ottava> It is in the TOS when you log in
[08:41] <Ottava> www.freenode.com/policy ?
[08:41] <Ottava> I don't remember the link �01
[08:41] <LauraHale> If you don't want your comments to be shared, then don't share them because this is public.
[08:41] <Ottava> Not really �01
[08:41] <LauraHale> And it really sounds like you're using IRC to circumvent what is happening on Wikiversity.
[08:41] <Ottava> having more than one person makes a public not �01
[08:42] <LauraHale> "I want to avoid having a log of what I'm doing so I'll go around the whole wiki transparency thing by doing it on IRC! Score. People can't see my actions."
[08:42] <Ottava> So, you are saying that I should ask Darkcode on his user talk page how long someone should be blocked and the ups and downs of each thing?
[08:42] <Ottava> and also put up his IP information attained from Wikipedia in public?
[08:42] <Ottava> and reveal in public what comments were oversighted over there?
[08:42] <Ottava> >.> �01
[08:42] <LauraHale> If it involves Wikiversity and policy discussion are based on IRC, you either provide the logs or summarize it for those not there.
[08:43] <Ottava> Plus, the privacy policy passed saying IRC logs aren't permitted
[08:43] <Ottava> so �01
[08:43] <LauraHale> Anything else is circumventing and you're doing it intentionally.
[08:43] <Ottava> you could have opined there
[08:43] <Ottava> We have no rules against circumventing anything
[08:43] <Ottava> otherwise, Abd would be banned for working on WR so much �01
[08:43] <LauraHale> As for the IP address issue, then you get a cloak.
[08:43] <Ottava> Laura, I was refering to KBlott's IP
[08:43] <Ottava> o.O �01
[08:43] <LauraHale> I'm referring to you.
[08:43] <Ottava> I wasn't
[08:43] <Ottava> There is sensitive information that is not made public �01
[08:44] <LauraHale> All the criticism on the page you were whining about involving you seem pretty spot on.
[08:44] <Ottava> ArbCom, OTRS, CUs, OS, and the rest have private emails and the rest for discussions
[08:44] <Ottava> and the admin have their own IRC room �01
[08:44] <LauraHale> Ottava: IP addresses are not particularly sensitive.
[08:44] <Ottava> #wikimedia-admin
[08:44] <darkcode> you don't need logs to summarize thats exactly why there is no need for public logs �01
[08:44] <LauraHale> If they don't want it logged, set +s. �01
[08:44] <LauraHale> And invite only.
[08:44] <Ottava> invite only isnt necessary for non public posting
[08:45] <Ottava> Freenode says hat
[08:45] <Ottava> that �01
[08:45] <LauraHale> I think the whole thing on Wikiversity involving you braying on about the logging issue on IRC being private is bullshit designed to inocculate yourself from behavior that the community would not support.
[08:45] <Ottava> By the way, small wiki task force uses IRC to work with all sorts of admin issues
[08:45] <Ottava> Well, the privacy policy says it is private
[08:45] <Ottava> so �01
[08:45] <LauraHale> And if you assume that people will follow that, and stupidly operate on the assumption that people will honor that, you're asking for the trouble you're getting.
[08:45] <Ottava> change it if you feel so strongly about it
[08:46] <Ottava> "You deserve to be raped because you dress like a whore"
[08:46] <Ottava> o.O �01
[08:46] <LauraHale> Hi! I'm Ottava and I'll rape people because I can do it where others can't hold me accountable for my actions!
[08:46] <Ottava> Where did I rape anyone?
[08:46] <Ottava> o.O
[08:46] <SB_Johnny> that's enough, please �01
[08:47] <LauraHale> <Ottava> "You deserve to be raped because you dress like a whore"
[08:47] <SB_Johnny> both of you :-) �06
[08:47] * Ottava gives Laura a muffin �01
[08:47] <LauraHale> No thanks.
[08:47] <Ottava> I was saying that was your argument above, mind you �01
[08:47] <LauraHale> Your analogy is flawed. �01
[08:47] <LauraHale> I'm using my argument.
[08:47] <Ottava> You sure are �01
[08:47] <LauraHale> My argument is that you're using these rules to hide your bad behavior.
[08:47] <Ottava> Doesn't mean I have to use it.
[08:47] <Ottava> The IRC logs don't show any bad behavior by me
[08:48] <Ottava> quite the opposite �01
[08:48] <LauraHale> That's a matter of perspective.
[08:48] <Ottava> I was tired of an admin using blocks to bully JWS
[08:48] <Ottava> JWS came to me with the concern �01
[08:48] <LauraHale> I think the IRC logs show you doing exactly what I think you're doing.
[08:48] <Ottava> I acted by telling Adambro there would be a problem if it continued �01
[08:48] <LauraHale> If you think that the logs show that you're not being bad and that you're totally transparency and operating in good faith, that's your problem.
[08:49] <Ottava> It isn't a problem at all �01
[08:49] <LauraHale> It just demonstrates that you'll continue to have problems because you're so caught up in your world view that you can't begin to percieve how others see you and respond accordingly. �01
[08:49] <LauraHale> Certainly seems like you see things this way and assume that the problem is never with you but others...
[08:49] <Ottava> So, you think a user has the right to constantly block someone over trivial things when that user had a 2 year negative relationship with the user? �03
[08:49] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the English Wikiversity IRC channel: http://en.wikiversity.org | For assistance ask your question and WAIT for an answer or ask at http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Colloquium | Discuss http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server | CVN channel at #cvn-wv-en�' �01
[08:50] <LauraHale> Ottava: Can you see where others might see your actions as problematic?
[08:50] <SB_Johnny> public logging is now permitted
[08:50] <Ottava> I asked for him to merely limit his blocks to 24 hours if they dont have discussion first
[08:50] <Ottava> how evil is that �01
[08:50] <LauraHale> Ottava: Can you see where others might see your actions as problematic?
[08:50] <Ottava> I can see where lots of people can see lots of things as lots of stuff �01
[08:50] <LauraHale> Ottava: Irrelevant to the issue. Get back on track. Answer my question. Can you see why people may view your actions as problematic and disruptive to the community?
[08:51] <Ottava> I already said yes �01
[08:51] <LauraHale> And how do you plan to address that going forward?
[08:51] <Ottava> Address what?
[08:51] <Ottava> A discussion with Adambro that ended a long time ago?
[08:51] <Ottava> My following standards in putting up policy discussions?
[08:51] <Ottava> My discussing with Darkcode in chat on what to do and seeking advice?
[08:51] <Ottava> o.O �01
[08:52] <LauraHale> And no, you didn't answer that question. You didn't say "I see how others see my actions as disruptive." You said: "I see that people have different perspectives on random things." �01
[08:52] <LauraHale> How do you plan to change your actions to help with the perception that you're not acting in good faith towards the greater wikiversity community?
[08:52] <Ottava> No I didnt, I said : "I can see where los of people can see lots of things as lots of stuff"
[08:52] <Ottava> Please don't misquote me
[08:53] <Ottava> Where am I not acting in good faith to the Wikiversity community in general?
[08:53] <Ottava> Out of the past month's over 150 logged actions �01
[08:53] <LauraHale> Ottava: You still didn't say "I see how people view me as not acting towards the public good on Wikiversity."
[08:53] <Ottava> how many of them are evil? �01
[08:53] <LauraHale> Ottava: Irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
[08:53] <Ottava> No, it isn't
[08:53] <Ottava> I want a figure
[08:53] <Ottava> tell me how many �01
[08:53] <LauraHale> Where did I characterize your edits as evil.
[08:53] <Ottava> Well, damaging to the community is the standard definition of an immoral act �01
[08:53] <LauraHale> You want me not to misquote you and then you attribute incorrect ideas to me.
[08:53] <Ottava> therefore, evil �01
[08:53] <LauraHale> We've thus reached what you're talking about.
[08:53] <Ottava> I asked you a new question
[08:53] <Ottava> I didnt attribute anything to you in it
[08:54] <Ottava> I want to know how many of my past month logged actions are improper
[08:54] <Ottava> inappropriate
[08:54] <Ottava> wrong
[08:54] <Ottava> misguided
[08:54] <Ottava> unfortunate
[08:54] <Ottava> unexplainable
[08:54] <Ottava> awful
[08:54] <Ottava> idiotic �01
[08:54] <LauraHale> Ottava: So now that we've got a real example here of you doing things that the community would consider bad faith, how will you go abotu fixing it?
[08:54] <Ottava> any negative characterization you want
[08:54] <Ottava> and multiple negative characterizations
[08:54] <Ottava> have at it! �01
[08:54] <LauraHale> Ottava: Still misrepresenting what I said and making a whole bunch of assumptions.
[08:54] <Ottava> What thing is bad faith?
[08:54] <Ottava> I never made any assumptions about what you -said- but asked you to provide new information �01
[08:55] <LauraHale> Because you're making totally false assumptions about what I said not based on the text of what I said.
[08:55] <Ottava> I haven't made any assumptions about you �01
[08:55] <LauraHale> Therefor, you're reinforcing the concept of bad faith in you.
[08:55] <Ottava> You can provide any answer to any magnitude �01
[08:55] <LauraHale> Ottava: You assumed I was commenting on your edits being evil. �03
[08:55] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the English Wikiversity IRC channel: http://en.wikiversity.org | For assistance ask your question and WAIT for an answer or ask at http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Colloquium | Discussions may be logging for public use | Discuss http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server | CVN channel at #cvn-wv-en�'
[08:55] <Ottava> Please provide an action demonstrating bad faith
[08:55] <Ottava> may be logging?
[08:55] <Ottava> >.> �03
[08:55] * ChanServ changes topic to 'Welcome to the English Wikiversity IRC channel: http://en.wikiversity.org | For assistance ask your question and WAIT for an answer or ask at http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Colloquium | Discussions may be logged for public use | Discuss http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Sandbox_Server | CVN channel at #cvn-wv-en�'
[08:55] <Ottava> May be logged*
[08:55] <Ottava> there we go �01
[08:55] <LauraHale> Ottava:
[08:52] <Ottava> Please don't misquote me
[08:53] <Ottava> how many of them are evil? �01
[08:55] <LauraHale> There. �01
[08:56] <LauraHale> Bad faith.
[08:56] <Ottava> I would like to know how many of my actions are evil
[08:56] <Ottava> bad faith in myself?
[08:56] <Ottava> o.O
[08:56] <Ottava> Lets make this simple �01
[08:56] <LauraHale> Two totally separate sets of criteria. One for me: LAURA DO NOT MISQUOTE ME! One for you: I'LL MISREPRESENT YOUR VIEWS!
[08:56] <Ottava> provide one example of bad faith
[08:56] <Ottava> Then we can discuss why �01
[08:56] <LauraHale>
[08:55] <LauraHale> Ottava:
[08:52] <Ottava> Please don't misquote me
[08:53] <Ottava> how many of them are evil? �01
[08:56] <LauraHale> Ottava: Discuss.
[08:56] <SB_Johnny> good lord
[08:56] <Ottava> I'm still waiting for an example o.O �01
[08:57] <LauraHale>
[08:55] <LauraHale> Ottava:
[08:52] <Ottava> Please don't misquote me
[08:53] <Ottava> how many of them are evil?
[08:57] <Ottava> Do I need to pick the example? �01
[08:57] <LauraHale> You told me not to misquote you
[08:57] <Ottava> Yes, I did �01
[08:57] <LauraHale> Ottava: I just provided an example.
[08:57] <SB_Johnny> assuming bad faith at every opportunity is bad faith
[08:57] <Ottava> No, Im refering to on wiki
[08:57] <Ottava> >.<
[08:57] <Ottava> And before this conversation �01
[08:57] <LauraHale> Ottava: And then you followed it up by totally misrepresenting what I said.
[08:57] <Ottava> >.< �01
[08:57] <LauraHale> Ottava: I don't give a crap about the wiki at this second. It is irrelevant to the discussion.
[08:57] <Ottava> come on now, back to the topic. You said I deserve the CR in many more and different words
[08:57] <Ottava> so lets get to why �03
[08:58] * Joins: eadthem (~coarsco@pdpc/supporter/active/eadthem) �01
[08:58] <LauraHale> Ottava: What you're doing is reinforcing the idea that you don't operate in good faith.
[08:58] <Ottava> Name an example in the CR showing recent bad faith and community destruction �01
[08:58] <LauraHale> Ottava: Irrelevant.
[08:58] <Ottava> o.O �01
[08:58] <LauraHale> Ottava: The issue at hand is your behavior.
[08:58] <Ottava> So, you wont explain where I acted in bad faith?
[08:58] <Ottava> How am I supposed to learn? �01
[08:58] <LauraHale>
[08:57] <LauraHale>
[08:55] <LauraHale> Ottava:
[08:52] <Ottava> Please don't misquote me
[08:53] <Ottava> how many of them are evil?
[08:58] <Ottava> You wont point out specifics �01
[08:58] <LauraHale> Ottava: There.
[08:58] <Ottava> That isn't on Wiki
[08:58] <Ottava> >.< �01
[08:58] <LauraHale> Ottava: Which is irrelevant. �01
[08:58] <LauraHale> The IRC chat room is part of the wikiversity community when it suits you.
[08:59] <Ottava> Okay, fine
[08:59] <Ottava> I committed bad faith above
[08:59] <Ottava> I was wrong
[08:59] <Ottava> now �01
[08:59] <LauraHale> But now! No! It isn't because it doesn't suit yoru cause.
[08:59] <Ottava> can we go onto a directly on en.wikipedia.org example?
[08:59] <Ottava> preferably one found - http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Ottava_Rima �01
[08:59] <LauraHale> Ottava: Good. Now, how will we move on and modify our behavior both in IRC and on the wiki.
[08:59] <Ottava> or perhaps a new one that you just discovered? �01
[08:59] <LauraHale> Ottava: Nope. I'm not involved with that We're still on the IRC topic and your general issues regarding how your behavior is perceived.
[09:00] <Ottava> O.o �01
[09:00] <LauraHale> Ottava: So your bad faith comment where you mischaracterized my remarks as implying you were evil... �06
[09:00] * Ottava has greater sympathy for Moulton
[09:00] <Ottava> I never said you implied I was evil
[09:00] <Ottava> I implied I was evil �01
[09:00] <LauraHale> you can see how people will percieve your actions as not in good faith?
[09:00] <Ottava> I am evil
[09:00] <Ottava> Go figure �01
[09:00] <LauraHale> Ottava: You need to reread.
[09:01] <Ottava> Well, people perceive evil people as evil, so it would make sense for them to have "bad" in their actions �01
[09:01] <LauraHale> You implied that by my saying that your actions are read by many as not being in the best interest of the community made you evil.
[09:01] <Ottava> No, I said the standard definition would do such �01
[09:01] <LauraHale> Ottava: People may percieve that you are the second coming of Jesus Christ
[09:01] <Ottava> I don't presume what you think of me
[09:01] <Ottava> Scary
[09:01] <Ottava> Wait, SB Johnny probably does and that is why he hates me. The damn athiest. :P �01
[09:01] <LauraHale> Unless some one sayd that you're evil, don't go around presuming that they think you do and don't act that way.
[09:02] <Ottava> Oh, I get told I am evil a lot
[09:02] <Ottava> you should see the hatemail I get from my religion column �01
[09:02] <LauraHale> Ottava: Then have you considered asking why people percieve you that way?
[09:02] <Ottava> a 90 year old woman sent me a handwritten letter saying tha I am responsible for all the evil in the world and signed it "fuck all churches" �01
[09:02] <LauraHale> Ottava: So if a number of people on Wikiversity consider that you're acting in bad faith, what have you done to demonstrate differently?
[09:02] <Ottava> Well, she made it clear that Catholics are responsible for the BTK killer, for her not getting into college, and a blizzard that caused her to get sick as a child �01
[09:03] <LauraHale> Ottava: Frankly, based on our conversation here, I really think that those people are right. You are disruptive, rude and a detriment the health of the whole community.
[09:03] <Ottava> Well, I would point out an example of being criticized by he same people got me the praise of the Foundation during the Jimbo matter
[09:03] <Ottava> So, conflicting praise/criticism
[09:04] <Ottava> And since I am a sucker for Jimbo and the Foundation, I tend to be persuaded that way �01
[09:04] <LauraHale> Ottava: Not the Foundation. �01
[09:04] <LauraHale> Ottava: Read what I said. I said WIKIVERSITY.
[09:04] <Ottava> Well, Jimbo, Sue Gardner, Sj, Cary Bass, and a few others praised my Wikiversity work during that time
[09:04] <Ottava> stuff that Abd said was bad �06
[09:04] * Ottava shrugs �01
[09:04] <LauraHale> Ottava: Respond to what I'm actually writing instead of what you either think I'm saying or what you just want to pontificate about.
[09:04] <Ottava> I'm Catholic. We pontificate.
[09:04] <Ottava> Its why the Protestants hate us. �01
[09:05] <LauraHale> Ottava: You can produce valuable work but not help the greater community. �01
[09:05] <LauraHale> Ottava: Wow! I'm a Roman Catholic. �01
[09:05] <LauraHale> And I'll tell you that you're certainly pontificating.
[09:05] <Ottava> So, the past 150 actions in the past month didn't help the community at all?
[09:05] <Ottava> Hmm �01
[09:05] <LauraHale> Ottava: Describe the actions.
[09:05] <Ottava> I do enjoy pontificating �01
[09:05] <LauraHale> How did you help build the community?
[09:05] <Ottava> http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Ottava+Rima
[09:05] <Ottava> Lets see
[09:06] <Ottava> deleted lots of vandalism �01
[09:06] <LauraHale> No, tell me what you did to help grow the community.
[09:06] <Ottava> cleaned up categories �01
[09:06] <LauraHale> Ottava: That's subjective the vandalism. The community review of your actions highlights problems with your deltions.
[09:06] <Ottava> Oh, what I did? Lets see, I found a group of English Literature scholars and introduced them to Wikiversity, and they will be putting information up
[09:06] <Ottava> Problem with one deletion �01
[09:06] <LauraHale> Ottava: Cleaning up categories is not community growth but content improvement and organization. �01
[09:06] <LauraHale> Ottava: The latter is what you should have said first.
[09:06] <Ottava> Never gardened before? Trimming can promote growth
[09:06] <Ottava> Tell her, SB Johnny
[09:07] <darkcode> every little bit helps as long as nobody leaves as a result �01
[09:07] <LauraHale> That you put actual community growth third speaks volumes.
[09:07] <Ottava> Im going down the list of things I did in order
[09:07] <Ottava> o.O �01
[09:07] <LauraHale> And editing is important and so is cleaning... but there are whole balance issues.
[09:08] <darkcode> better organization means people can find things and people will help which allows the community to grow instead of leaving out of disinterest �01
[09:08] <LauraHale> Ottava: Not the best order when you're trying to sell how you're a positive asset to growing the community.
[09:08] <Ottava> I don't try to sell anything
[09:08] <Ottava> Maybe I would get more respect if I razzle dazzled everyone.
[09:08] <Ottava> Put on a show. �01
[09:08] <LauraHale> darkcode: I agree. I just wouldn't list it first given how active Ottava is in talking about Wikiversity and its various policy issues.
[09:08] <Ottava> Suck up, praise people falsely, and all the other things.
[09:08] <Ottava> Honesty doesn't seem to have the same charm.
[09:09] <Ottava> SB Johnny, did you know that you are 100% delightful and entertaining? <3 �01
[09:09] <LauraHale> Ottava: Maybe you'd get more respect if: 1) You didn't misrepresent what people said, 2) Responded to what people actually said instead of what you think they said/want to respond to that isn't there, 3) Worked with more people inside the community when it came to governance, 4) Weren't as involved with people who didn't want to see WMF go down.
[09:10] <Ottava> Who said I wanted respect?
[09:10] <Ottava> If I wanted respect, why would I spent 4 hours a day doing shit work?
[09:10] <Ottava> The stuff no one cares about
[09:10] <Ottava> That makes us look awful when no one does it?
[09:10] <Ottava> There isn't any glory in it
[09:10] <Ottava> It takes away from my own work. �01
[09:10] <LauraHale> Ottava: If people don't respect you, it makes your work that much harder.
[09:10] <Ottava> I don't want to be respected.
[09:10] <Ottava> I don't care about what people think. �01
[09:11] <LauraHale> Ottava: You generally get more work done when you can work with others.
[09:11] <Ottava> I work not because of others but because someone has to. It is my own purgation to have to put up with the bowels of hell.
[09:11] <SB_Johnny> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w536Alnon24
[09:11] <Ottava> I've pinged people quite regularly begging for help and it rarely happens �01
[09:11] <LauraHale> I've not seen any evidence that by being onfrontational and abrasive that your efforts to get work done have been more productive than they would have been had you decided to work with others. �01
[09:12] <LauraHale> Ottava: Do you have evidence that being confrontational increases productivity and community support?
[09:12] <Ottava> I got the opposite advice in the Steward room to just ignore Abd as a troll
[09:12] <Ottava> odd
[09:12] <Ottava> By the way, aren't you being confrontational?
[09:12] <Ottava> I don't remember ever going to criticize any of Abd's pages, or SB Johnny's projects, or yours, or anyone's
[09:13] <Ottava> If anything, I've been put on the defense �01
[09:13] <LauraHale> Ottava: I'm being confrontational because being nice to you has never really resulted in your behavior modifying.
[09:13] <Ottava> Odd how someone is put on the defense, attacked from multiple people, yet was the only one doing any work
[09:13] <Ottava> Just curious, what have you done for the community again?
[09:13] <Ottava> You never did explain that
[09:13] <Ottava> You did take a higher ground position yet haven't justified it. �01
[09:13] <LauraHale> Ottava: I'm not active on the community.
[09:13] <Ottava> It is a little odd.
[09:13] <Ottava> Oh really? �01
[09:13] <LauraHale> Not really.
[09:13] <Ottava> Yet you are criticizing me
[09:14] <Ottava> Odd
[09:14] <Ottava> ....
[09:14] <Ottava> Very odd �01
[09:14] <LauraHale> I see people like you and here about the politics of Wikiversity and I just don't want to get involved with that shit.
[09:14] <Ottava> So, the guy doing all the work is not doing things right, and the person pointing this out hasn't jumped in to help?
[09:14] <Ottava> o.O �01
[09:14] <LauraHale> Ottava: Not really. You do what makes you happy and where you can offer the greatest contribution.
[09:14] <Ottava> Sounds like a formula for disaster
[09:14] <Ottava> I don't do what makes me happy, and anyone doing what makes them happy is a fool.
[09:14] <Ottava> There is work to be done.
[09:14] <Ottava> you aren't doing it
[09:14] <Ottava> Abd isn't doing it
[09:14] <Ottava> SB Johnny isn't doing it
[09:15] <Ottava> Thekohser isn't doing it
[09:15] <Ottava> none of them are
[09:15] <Ottava> the only active person who could have any say is Jtneill �03
[09:15] * Joins: Erkan___Yilmaz (~Erkan___Y@f053220066.adsl.alicedsl.de) �01
[09:15] <LauraHale> Ottava: Translation: The only person I give a shit about is myself and I really don't care about the success of Wikiversity outside the terms I set. �01
[09:15] <LauraHale> Ottava: And it sounds like Jtneill has the same issues I have: You're abrasive and rude. You could do good work but you can't get past the need to be confrontational. It hinders your effectiveness. �01
[09:16] <LauraHale> Ottava: And you've repeatedly asserted that you don't care what others think.
[09:16] <Ottava> Im sorry, but you unless you do any work
[09:17] <Ottava> What rights do you have?
[09:17] <darkcode> I doubt being confrontational is the issue either, pretending there isn't an issue when you think there is doesn't solve anything either
[09:17] <Ottava> Do you think you can just freeload?
[09:17] <Ottava> Just sit there in the peanut gallery and dominate everything?
[09:17] <Ottava> Is this a show? Are you at the movies? Do you enjoy your popcorn? �01
[09:17] <LauraHale> Ottava: I don't freeload. I'm pretty active in the wider wiki community. I just don't want to be involved in Wikiversity because of the politics of editing with folks like you.
[09:18] <Ottava> Are you Statler or Waldorf? �01
[09:18] <LauraHale> Ottava: Do you think you have the right to turn people off to contributing to Wikiversity?
[09:18] <Ottava> I turn people off? �01
[09:18] <LauraHale> Ottava: What's your problem? Why do you hate Wikiversity?
[09:18] <Ottava> Really? �03
[09:18] * Joins: t_thanos1 (~thanos@150.140.215.111)
[09:18] <Ottava> Ahaha �01
[09:18] <LauraHale> Ottava: Why can't you read what people say?
[09:18] <Ottava> What people?
[09:18] <Ottava> Abd?
[09:18] <Ottava> I really turned him off
[09:18] <Ottava> He surely left �01
[09:19] <LauraHale> Ottava: You're really convincing me that I should be involved with Wikiversity! �01
[09:19] <LauraHale> Congrats. A+ work.
[09:19] <Ottava> People left because when SB Johnny had a chance, he poisoned the atmosphere and drew them to his own competitive project
[09:19] <Ottava> Laura, I don't care if you are involved or not
[09:19] <Ottava> You don't do anything now �01
[09:19] <LauraHale> Ottava: Well, there you go.
[09:19] <Ottava> So it isn't a loss if you continue to do anything �03
[09:19] * Joins: privatemusings (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/privatemusings)
[09:20] <Ottava> continue to not do anything* �01
[09:20] <LauraHale> Ottava: Thanks for saying "Wikiversity doesn't need to grow."
[09:20] <Ottava> Now look at privatemusings. I bent over backwards to protect him, even from himself
[09:20] <SB_Johnny> g'day privatemusings :-) �01
[09:20] <LauraHale> Let me read that like Ottava does!
[09:20] <Ottava> SB Johnny only put him in a bad position �01
[09:20] <LauraHale> "I'm Ottava! I want to destroy Wikiversity! I want to make sure we don't get any new contributors! MWA HA HA HA!" �01
[09:20] <LauraHale> Ottava: Yeah, do on about SB_Johnny and all you want.
[09:21] <Ottava> LauraHale - I've introduced many people to Wikiversity over the years
[09:21] <privatemusings> G'day SB :-)
[09:21] <Ottava> and I haven't chased anyone off
[09:21] <Ottava> JWS did �01
[09:21] <LauraHale> That's not particularly relevant to the discussion. The discussion here involves your actions.
[09:21] <Ottava> SB Johnny did
[09:21] <Ottava> etc
[09:21] <SB_Johnny> !time
[09:21] <wikiversilinky> Los Angeles 02:21 | New York 05:21 | London 10:21 | Berlin 11:21 || Tokyo 07:21 | Sydney 09:21
[09:21] <privatemusings> less of the bending over for me, Ottava ;-)
[09:21] <Ottava> You haven't pointed out any specific actions :)
[09:21] <darkcode> theres a million ways to read what somebody says, getting it right has a 99.999% error rate
[09:21] <privatemusings> It's not generally approved (hee hee!)
[09:21] <Ottava> Still asked, still not answered :) �06
[09:21] * privatemusings is brewing his morning office cuppa �01
[09:21] <LauraHale> Ottava: I repeatedly cited how you misrepresented people's words.
[09:21] <Ottava> darkcode - are you saying you are 99.999% wrong? :P
[09:21] <SB_Johnny> yeah, that's why I asked for the time �06
[09:21] * Ottava gives privatemusings a muffin :D
[09:22] <privatemusings> thanks for muffin. �01
[09:22] <LauraHale> And you're pretty confrontational. You don't appear to want to fix it.
[09:22] <privatemusings> (geddit) �01
[09:22] <LauraHale> You don't care how people view you. �06
[09:22] * SB_Johnny is not having coffee
[09:22] <Ottava> I care how privatemusings views me
[09:22] <darkcode> possibly Ottava ;p
[09:22] <privatemusings> be careful what you wish for........ �02
[09:22] * Quits: t_thanos (~thanos@wikiversity/assassingr�) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds�)
[09:22] <Ottava> haha
[09:22] <darkcode> at least I'm right 0.001% of the time �01
[09:22] <LauraHale> So I've given plenty of examples in IRC of your actions in IRC. And you just ignore them because they disrupt your narrative of I AM OTTAVA AND I AM GREAT! OTHERS HAVE THE PROBLEM.
[09:23] <Ottava> Lets see, who else do I care about their opinion - for some reason, still Moulton, I care about Jtneill, about Mikeu, Sj, um um
[09:23] <Ottava> hmm
[09:23] <Ottava> Cormaggio
[09:23] <Ottava> I miss him �01
[09:23] <LauraHale> And if that isn't the case, then you're not helping solve the problem of why there are pages like http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Community_Review/Ottava_Rima and why they want to strip you of your powers. �02
[09:23] * Quits: t_thanos1 (~thanos@150.140.215.111�) (Client Quit�) �03
[09:23] * Joins: t_thanos (~thanos@wikiversity/assassingr)
[09:23] <Ottava> The only posters to that whose opinions matter are Adambro and Jtneill
[09:23] <Ottava> and they haven't responded to what I've showed them yet
[09:23] <Ottava> so the issue is still out
[09:24] <Ottava> Oh, I care about Cary Bass but he is gone
[09:24] <Ottava> I care about Jimbo, but I lurve Jimbo <3 �01
[09:24] <LauraHale> Ottava: Do you care about the health and growth of Wikiversity?
[09:24] <Ottava> Did I mention Erkan
[09:24] <Ottava> ? �01
[09:24] <LauraHale> Do you care about its credibility in the greater wiki community?
[09:24] <Ottava> Erkan, sorry if I didn't :D
[09:25] <Ottava> Well, it would be why, in the past two months I revealed over 500 copyrighted infringing pages
[09:25] <Ottava> o.O
[09:25] <Ottava> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Banglapedia_(source) �01
[09:25] <LauraHale> Ottava: Great and awesome.
[09:25] <Ottava> That was pretty fun
[09:25] <Ottava> past 3 months
[09:25] <Ottava> or whatever
[09:25] <Ottava> time flies �01
[09:25] <LauraHale> Ottava: Then why do you take actions that run counter to that if it is something you care about?
[09:26] <Ottava> Because I am a West Virginian redneck
[09:26] <Ottava> Abuse is how I show my love
[09:26] <darkcode> because he doesn't see it as being counter? �01
[09:26] <LauraHale> Ottava: Are you going to block me when I post a log of this to my user page on Wikiversity?
[09:26] <Ottava> You have a user page on Wikiversity?
[09:26] <Ottava> ooooo �01
[09:26] <LauraHale> darkcode: That's part of the problem. And why I'm trudging through this conversation.
[09:26] <Ottava> I'm going to look
[09:27] <Ottava> SB Johnny flipped it over to logged discussion so �01
[09:27] <LauraHale> In order to help him understand that other persepctive existed.
[09:27] <Ottava> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:LauraHale
[09:27] <Ottava> Kinda fancy �01
[09:27] <LauraHale> Ottava: I'm correct in assuming you're not going to block me?
[09:27] <Ottava> Mine looks like shit in comparison
[09:27] <Ottava> Laura, I like the name Laura, so I wouldn't block you ^__^
[09:28] <SB_Johnny> well, I was hoping that making the logs ok you would think a bit before "speaking" �01
[09:28] <LauraHale> On that note, I'm going to post it and then I have things to do.
[09:28] <Ottava> "I've been in fandom since 1994 or so. I started with Star Trek: The Next Generation and moved on to Sailor Moon and then Babylon 5 and X-Files."
[09:28] <Ottava> :D
[09:28] <privatemusings> is the aim to do a bit of an IRC version of the community review thing here at this time?
[09:28] <SB_Johnny> but that's obviously a failed experiment :-)
[09:28] <Ottava> You should totally write a learning project about scifi stuff
[09:28] <darkcode> technically SB_Johnny removed the no public logging, I added the discussions may be logged for public use
[09:28] <Ottava> privatemusings - it was my aim but Laura was uncooperative :( �06
[09:28] * privatemusings thinks open logs are good for everyone anyhow....
[09:29] <privatemusings> what were you trying to understand, ottava?
[09:29] <privatemusings> (or what were you trying to get from it?)
[09:29] <SB_Johnny> ah, wife and daughter have arrived at last! bbl
[09:29] <privatemusings> ta ta SB.....
[09:30] <darkcode> since I thought it only fair that people should be warned about the possibility of being logged
Session Close: Tue Nov 23 09:30:56 2010